The illusion of movement

[ivankiss]

A vision came to me today. It also felt like a memory, strangly. 

In this vision I was a picture. A perfect expression of one captured moment. I was also fully aware of my totality. Yet I was frozen in terror, so to speak. Everything was static and timeless. As complete as it can be. The subject was an object, so to speak.

Is this how reality is once fully realized? 

What are the mechanics behind this illusion of movement? What makes it apparent? 

I am not questioning free will. I know it exists here and now. I am merely curious about the topic.

 

 

[Jack River]

Cool topic dude. 

3 minutes ago, ivankiss said:

What are the mechanics behind this illusion of movement? What makes it apparent

Is it thoughts tendency to fragment the subject as being distinct from the object in experience? 

[SoonHei]

@ivankiss keep in mind when we are talking about the "illusion" of something it means the part which is the illusion is also true.

 

it is all relative and so is the movement

a simple example being that if you are standing on the side of the road and watch your friend drive in a car infront of you, you will see that you are still and he is moving

and from his POV, he is still and you are moving

 

just like that, from the POV of the moon, you are moving though you are standing still on earth

 

same with reality

it's the POV which dictates the movement vs stillness 

or free will vs determinism

all these are opposites

and they are both always there in unity as the absolute

from the absolute POV there is neither movement nor stillness

there are no distinctions

there are no illusions

there just is isness and isn'tness 

there is nothing and everything

 

 

[ivankiss]

@Jack River It is. Will it stop arising? Why am I asking the questions if I already know the anwers? It seems like a loop and I don't know how to navigate out

Edited December 17, 2018 by ivankiss

[ivankiss]

@SoonHei That clarifies a lot, thank you. 

How does the shift between points of view occur? How was I able to experience myself from another point of view? How was I able to see myself as an object? Is this a skill to be learned?

[Jack River]

5 minutes ago, ivankiss said:

@Jack River It is. Will it stop arising? Why am I asking the quwstions if I already know the anwers? It seems like a loop and I don't know how to navigate out

A fruity loop fosho 

we sustain the loop by asking how...it’s helllla sublte dude. 

It all has to do with psychological recording as the obsever(time). 

Edited December 17, 2018 by Jack River

[SoonHei]

9 minutes ago, ivankiss said:

@SoonHei That clarifies a lot, thank you. 

How does the shift between points of view occur? How was I able to experience myself from another point of view? How was I able to see myself as an object? Is this a skill to be learned?

no... no skill really

there is no method to bring about the understanding

 

sure you can do various exercises/teachings etc which can get you closer and closer

 

or as leo would say, try some pysedellecs and let them do the talking

 

but just like with this image: 

there is no "skill " that is needed to see the old vs young woman. the shift just happens when it does...

 

ergo... the pathless path

[ajasatya]

@ivankiss even if you could feel experiences (like thoughts) if time stopped, light still wouldn't be able to reach your eyes and nor would sound. it would be completely dark and silent.

what we usually think of time stopping is just fantasy.

Edited December 17, 2018 by ajasatya

[LastThursday]

43 minutes ago, ivankiss said:

Everything was static and timeless.

That is essentially correct.

44 minutes ago, ivankiss said:

What are the mechanics behind this illusion of movement?

We don't perceive movement, we perceive change. Change is like heat or smell or colour.  We have to mentally fill in or construct the movement. This effect is used in TV and film, to create the illusion of movement. The individual frames of a film are static and unchanging, but the rapid changes cause the illusion of movement.

We then mentally construct a timeline to fit all the movements logically together. We create a narrative.

Ever see it in a film where they compress a stretch of several days into about twenty seconds? It's a good trick. This works because you mentally 'fill in' and stretch out the time to make it fit several days. This is exactly what you do in everyday life.

If you observe carefully, there is no movement and there is no past.

[ivankiss]

@LastThursday Thank you.

I often think of the movie analogy.

Why does change come so quickly? Why am I unable to catch the empty space in between changes? I sense that slowing down is the key for seeing through. It is not fast, actually. It just goes unnoticed. I have no idea if I am articulating this well, but I feel like I'm goinig in the right direction. 

Or maybe this is just mental masturbation.

At times I have no idea do I begin or end.

[ivankiss]

@Jack River Subtle as fuck, indeed 

I feel like I am becoming a ninja 

@SoonHei Haha, thanks for the pic. Got your point. It was directly experiental. Psychadelics soon to come. I took a long break. I feel ready now tho 

@ajasatya I was pointing at awareness itself. I did not mean to say: "Ivan experienced time stopping". That would not make sense 

[Preetom]

@ivankiss

Without referring to memory(which is thought), would there be any sense of movement or change?

These things are all 'felt' in contrast, never on their own.

Can it be that you experience movement preciously because you yourself never move?

Can it be that you experience change because you yourself are changeless? 

[LastThursday]

15 minutes ago, ivankiss said:

Why does change come so quickly? Why am I unable to catch the empty space in between changes?

Change is constant. Change doesn't happen in time, time happens in change - it is neither quick nor slow, just constant. There is never a stopping of change.

There is nothing to catch. Change doesn't live in space, space lives in change. Change is everywhere and always with no gaps. Change is the empty space - or the empty space is change.

[brugluiz]

The illusion of movement may be the same as the illusion of time.

Edited December 17, 2018 by brugluiz
typo

[ivankiss]

10 minutes ago, Preetom said:

@ivankiss

Without referring to memory(which is thought), would there be any sense of movement or change?

These things are all 'felt' in contrast, never on their own.

Can it be that you experience movement preciously because you yourself never move?

Can it be that you experience change because you yourself are changeless? 

How can I be changeless yet changing constantly? Within stillness I move. I know that. I just can't wrap my mind arround how that is possible. Can the mind grasp infinity?

[ivankiss]

2 minutes ago, brugluiz said:

The illusion of movement may be the same as the illusion of time.

May be. Or may be not. I cannot prove yet.

[Cudin]

This song is called "Everytime I take a step, the world leave its place"

 

[Jack River]

2 hours ago, LastThursday said:

Change is constant. Change doesn't happen in time, time happens in change - it is neither quick nor slow, just constant. There is never a stopping of change.

 

Excellent?

 

 

[Matt8800]

6 hours ago, ivankiss said:

A vision came to me today. It also felt like a memory, strangly. 

In this vision I was a picture. A perfect expression of one captured moment. I was also fully aware of my totality. Yet I was frozen in terror, so to speak. Everything was static and timeless. As complete as it can be. The subject was an object, so to speak.

Is this how reality is once fully realized? 

What are the mechanics behind this illusion of movement? What makes it apparent? 

I am not questioning free will. I know it exists here and now. I am merely curious about the topic.

 

 

Sounds like you had an insight about time. There is no movement without time.

When you realize the past and the future are just concepts, and the present is the only thing real, do you feel "frozen" in the present moment?

[ivankiss]

@Matt8800 I do realize those are concepts. I often notice them fading away. What is interesting to me is the fact that now seems to be changing constantly, regardless of concepts. Now is still, not going anywhere. Yet there are infinite versions and expressions of it. When I reflect back onto this I am applying time, I realize that. But when there is no me to think about past or future, change still happens. Is now a concept as well?

The insight I had was including no movement or change whatsoever. And no me.

@LastThursday What would life look like if I was to forget about past and future? I know this is pointing to infinity. I am just...worried I might end up trapped somehow. Is living here on this planet at this time even possible without reinforcing the idea of time?

Will the concept of it fade away naturally, eventually?