Eckhart Tolle Enlightenment...damn

[Isle of View]

@SkyPanther

From my perspective:

The reason the games ever become tiresome is because one is trapped in something. 

Suffering, dukkha, comes from attachment primarly. 

Some people attach to old traditions, trends... can't let go, because they associate themselves so strongly with it, they think they're gonna die...

Comprehension is the only way to really let go of misrepresentations.

 

34 minutes ago, SkyPanther said:

The Bodhisattva vow is taken, usually, by Tibetan Buddhists, Theravada Buddhists think this is foolhardy because only another Buddha can tell if you can actually fulfil the vow.  What ends up happening, the theory goes, is that some people might become future Buddhas, but some will not, and they will be stuck in existence till they either break the vow, or meet another Buddha that will tell them "Hey, you don't have the muster to fulfill this path, drop it!"

 

Yes, of course, but that's how sects differ from each other. 

In any event, it always helps in spiritual progress when one to some degree commits to the enhancement of well being of others (which translates to reduction of suffering). Why it works is because with this attitude you radiate higher moods and good intentions all over the place. Even if you don't say or do much.

The reason why I quit Buddhism (association with it) is because many take the tradition more seriously than the teaching and take the teaching often too literal (instead of conceptual).

At some point I decided to let go of it. They're lost in tradition and consequently superimpose their "culture" and "interpretation" over the teaching.

I don't say it's worthless. I only think it was not meant that way by the source of the teaching. 

I don't know how deep you are rooted in Buddhism, but I think you understand what I am talking about.

 

Kind regards, 
Chris

Edited April 11, 2016 by Isle of View

[SkyPanther]

19 minutes ago, Isle of View said:

@SkyPanther

From my perspective:

The reason the games ever become tiresome is because one is trapped in something. 

Suffering, dukkha, comes from attachment primarly. 

Words change.

Some people attach to old traditions, trends... can't let go, because they associate themselves so strongly with it, they think they're gonna die...

Comprehension is the only way to really let go of misrepresentations.

 

 

Yes, of course, but that's how sects differ from each other. 

In any event, it always helps in spiritual progress when one to some degree commits to the enhancement of well being of others (which translates to reduction of suffering). Why it works is because with this attitude you radiate higher moods and good intentions all over the place. Even if you don't say or do much.

The reason why I quit Buddhism (association with it) is because many take the tradition more seriously than the teaching and take the teaching often too literal (instead of conceptual).

At some point I decided to let go of it. They're lost in tradition and consequently superimpose their "culture" and "interpretation" over the teaching.

I don't say it's worthless. I only think it was not meant that way by the source of the teaching. 

I don't know how deep you are rooted in Buddhism, but I think you understand what I am talking about.

 

Kind regards, 
Chris

Most of the Buddhists I see in monasteries are stuck in ritual, merit, and worship.  Granted I have not been to all monasteries in San Diego.

The "insight" center I have been to (the ones that are part of the Insight Meditation Society of Joseph Goldstein) tend to be more psychology than Buddhism.

Neither of these are "wrong" they cater to people that get value from them.  But they do not resonate with me.

After I got my "realization", and after I started meditating, the insights kept coming, and disenchantment soon followed.  But, and this is just my intuition speaking, some people crave and cling to life, and some do not.  If someone would ask me "do you not fear death?" I would answer "I do not cling to life".

Here is a different perspective on what I am saying from a Zen follower:

Quote

 

Mundane and supermundane

It is no exaggeration to say that Western Buddhists have no idea that the so-called Noble Eightfold Path, the arya-ashtanga-marga, which is supermundane, is not meant for them, nor are the Four Noble Truths.  In fact, any Buddhist term that begins with “noble” which is ârya in Sanskrit and ariya in Pali, is not meant for them.  

Generally speaking, there are four kinds of recluses, viz., the sotapanna (current enterer), the sakadagamin (once returner), the anagamin (non-returner) and the arahant (one who has attained final sanctification).  All are nobles, not ordinary beings.

Not that much different, the life of a genuine Bodhisattva commences withbodhicittotpada, this being the arising of the mind that is bodhi.  It is a supermundane state which cannot, in anyway, be known by those still caught up in the mundane world.  In Mahayana Sutras Bodhisattvas are always present along with monastics and others.  But seldom, if any mention is made of an ordinary being, a prithagjana.

As I have mentioned on other blogs, the Buddha’s world is split into two distinct camps: the worldly person (prithagjana) and the noble spiritual person (arya).  One camp is bound down to conditionality, the other sees the unconditioned which is immortal.  One camp is stuck in samsara; the other is on their way to nirvana.  One camp mistakes the Five Aggregates for the self; the other does not.  This is a spiritual distinction.  One person is clueless as to what the Buddhist spiritual experience is (one of the Buddha attendents before Ananda was such), the other is not.

Source: http://zennist.typepad.com/zenfiles/2013/07/mundane-and-supermundane.html

 

It is really hard to explain, but you can be really free, and happy without clinging to either death, or life. And at some point you get the realization that you are just tired of the rounds of existence. 

Of course as I mentioned, this will only be true for some people... some will fully embrace life, and "the world", and there is nothing wrong with that. 

It is the opposite side of the coin.  One is emptiness, the other is fullness, and one cannot exist (and is meaningless) without the other. 

Edited April 11, 2016 by SkyPanther

[SkyPanther]

Incidentally, arguing the other perspective will be hard for either being to resonate with. 

If you are full, and someone is telling you how great all this food and restaurant is, and you should really eat more; will sound irrational to the person that is full.

If you are hungry, a full person telling you how great it is to stop eating, and leave the restaurant, will sound irrational to the person that is hungry.

But neither person is actually "wrong", it is all relative.  

Edited April 11, 2016 by SkyPanther

[Isle of View]

@SkyPanther I totally follow you.

But you see, the utterane in the quote:

Quote

It is no exaggeration to say that Western Buddhists have no idea that the so-called Noble Eightfold Path, the arya-ashtanga-marga, which is supermundane, is not meant for them, nor are the Four Noble Truths.  In fact, any Buddhist term that begins with “noble” which is ârya in Sanskrit and ariya in Pali, is not meant for them.  

Who is he to decide that? You see? He is not the originator of the Teaching.

As for "The Greater Discourse on the Simile of the Heartwood"

You need to understand (and I'm sure you know it already), the Buddhists scriptures, The Pali Suttas and other texts have been written some time after the good man passed away. So how do we know what interpretations have found their way into the transmission?

From my current perspective, you can play any game without clinging to the outcome.

You can use any game to reduce your urge to cling to the outcome.

You can be very successful without clinging to the outcome.

You can be very influential without clinging to the oucome.

You can spread the Dharma without clinging to the oucome.

You can reduce suffering and enhance well being all around you, without clinging to the outcome.

You can live, without clinging to the outcome.

You can be exited about and interested in the outcome, without clingling to the outcome.

 

Interest is not equal to clinging.

Grasping is not clinging.

It's a trap to tell people that living life is contrary to their spiritual development.

It produces a kind of guilt and is really a wrong indication. 

Instead it is better to educate them in the basics of the teachings, what clinging really means, why it does produce suffering, how they can manage to overcome their greedyness, hate and anger. What metta is and what it will do for their own well being and those they're connected to. These are practical laws of existence.

 

My friend, I could write all night, but I need some sleep now.

Kind regards, 
Chris

 

[SkyPanther]

25 minutes ago, Isle of View said:

@SkyPanther I totally follow you.

But you see, the utterane in the quote:

Who is he to decide that? You see? He is not the originator of the Teaching.

As for "The Greater Discourse on the Simile of the Heartwood"

You need to understand (and I'm sure you know it already), the Buddhists scriptures, The Pali Suttas and other texts have been written some time after the good man passed away. So how do we know what interpretations have found their way into the transmission?

From my current perspective, you can play any game without clinging to the outcome.

You can use any game to reduce your urge to cling to the outcome.

You can be very successful without clinging to the outcome.

You can be very influential without clinging to the oucome.

You can spread the Dharma without clinging to the oucome.

You can reduce suffering and enhance well being all around you, without clinging to the outcome.

You can live, without clinging to the outcome.

You can be exited about and interested in the outcome, without clingling to the outcome.

 

Interest is not equal to clinging.

Grasping is not clinging.

It's a trap to tell people that living life is contrary to their spiritual development.

It produces a kind of guilt and is really a wrong indication. 

Instead it is better to educate them in the basics of the teachings, what clinging really means, why it does produce suffering, how they can manage to overcome their greedyness, hate and anger. What metta is and what it will do for their own well being and those they're connected to. These are practical laws of existence.

 

My friend, I could write all night, but I need some sleep now.

Kind regards, 
Chris

 

I agree.  As for what the author of that article said, I also agree with you, he cannot say who the teachings are meant for, or not.  I think they are meant for everyone.  But I think some people will stick to using it as ritual, and turning it into a religion, and others will see it for what it is...   a teaching.  

His interpretation is not just his though, the Buddha did say that some people have too much dust in their eyes, he called beings like this "worldlings".  

What is wrong is attaching any kind of negative connotations to it.  There is nothing wrong with embracing life, and at the same time not clinging to outcome/views, etc.  (We also need to take it in the time the teachings were given, where people were looking for moksha/nirvana, a time where suffering was a lot more... pronounced than it is now.)

And yes, the Suttas were written down after the Buddha died, thanks to Ananda and his eidetic memory.

Incidentally, for those interested, the Buddha died from apparently eating tainted meat (food poisoning/dysentery), he was 80. 

Edited April 12, 2016 by SkyPanther

[Isle of View]

12 hours ago, SkyPanther said:

I agree.  As for what the author of that article said, I also agree with you, he cannot say who the teachings are meant for, or not.  I think they are meant for everyone.  But I think some people will stick to using it as ritual, and turning it into a religion, and others will see it for what it is...   a teaching.  

Some people will. An it's their right. But it will serve them only to a certain level. One can not rise above certain levels without leaving behind sectarian (let alone secular) indoctrination.

 

12 hours ago, SkyPanther said:

His interpretation is not just his though, the Buddha did say that some people have too much dust in their eyes, he called beings like this "worldlings".  

Yes, but here he referes to a certain degree of spiritual maturity, not as a generalisation for people who come from distinct areas of the world.

But we digress :-)

 

Coming back to "labels", "words", "definitions", "superimpositions", "misrepresentations".

Having a good, precise vocabulary increases clarity in the fields of your engagement (be it secular or spiritual).

It increases Right View, Right Speach, Right Concentration.

 

Kind regards, 
Chris

 

@ButlerMr Gleeson

 

Edited April 12, 2016 by Isle of View

[SkyPanther]

19 hours ago, The Village Idiot said:

@SkyPanther It took me quite awhile to realize that EVERY thought is the ego. Every single thought no matter what vantage point, no matter what perspective, no matter how enlightening. All ego, all false self, all not Self. Very cool to see you point this out, a great reminder for many. 

@Isle of View

Yes, and something interesting to think about as well, and why some people that are on the path start to feel disenchanted with existence and seek nibbana, moksha, or "release"...

Some realize that the self (ego) is an illusion.  But it takes a bit to sink in that this is true for everyone as well (every other ego is an illusion, but is taken very seriously by people). Life is a chain in a process, a cause and effect chain, of simple, to less simple, to complex.  And this process is true in nature, as it is true in the human (and other beings) psyche, and human (and other beings) culture. Conceptual proliferation, labeling is also part of this chain.

Most people see themselves as a byproduct of the universe, instead of seeing themselves as the process of the universe.  And since there is no "you", the cause and effect chain is also still in play.  You(we) will act out an effect dependent on your knowledge, upbringing, culture, genetics and cause.  There is some wiggle room, but it is not "free will" as we know it, it is more "Compatibilism".

So, when atrocities happen, things like the holocaust, or ISIS, or whatever other event, all of that is done by us to us, or the universe is doing it to itself. 

WW2 started because germany and its people were pretty much humiliated (from their egoic perspective) after WW1, and the country went bankrupt. Among other causes this was what led to the start of the rise of Naziism, and Hitler. 

But you can go down the chain of events and can "blame" some other causes as the "real cause"... like that Germany formed at all.  And you start dealing with absurdity.  But then it dawns on you, the whole thing is a kind of absurdity.

The whole thing falls apart when you realize that the reason you see events like this is because you are still thinking as an egoic "I". You are still living (at least on the conceptual level) in a duality of "I" and "them".  Only as you move on this path you get there is no "them".  It's only an illusion, "them" is as much "you" as "you" are part of the whole of existence. 

This is why the Buddhas/enlightened beings let themselves be slaughtered while sending Metta to the cause... (the other being, link in the process).  Once you get it, self and the preservation of self, or the chasing of more, is all absurd; a being (awareness) playing with itself for eternity. 

There is a book that is forwarded by Alan Watts that is seldom taught or brought up by most people seeking enlightenment, but, in my opinion, one that should be read as part of the practice: 

The Secret Oral Teachings in Tibetan Buddhist Sects Paperback:

http://www.amazon.com/Secret-Teachings-Tibetan-Buddhist-Sects/dp/0872860124

This is why I say the "heartwood" of Buddhism is liberation.  The absurdity of playing a game of "hide and seek"(with yourself) is only fun till you figure out the game and find what you were seeking. 

Leo has brought this up in some ways as well, just a bit disjointed across a few videos, and a few posts made here saying the same thing about becoming a hermit...

Edited April 12, 2016 by SkyPanther

[Isle of View]

@SkyPanther

Was this a response to me or The Village?

:-)

All of life is a process. That's very true from my perspective. And all we humans do is some kind of process (every doing-ness or activity is a process with an outcome). If we comprehend what we are doing, we will process it in the direction of desired outcome. If we can continuously process something to the desired outcome, we speak of mastery of the subject.

Liberation is the ultimate goal of many traditions and many paths. Many different backgrounds. Many different belief systems as to what is supposed to happen and how it will happen and which is the best way to bring about the final dissolution.

One thing is for sure, what you resolve today, you won't need to resolve tomorrow.
What you comprehend today, won't confuse you tomorrow.

Buddhism for me is, behind all the beautiful traditions that came from its influence, a very practical approach. With very practical advice, practice and explenations. It's very limited (or so it seems compared to many earlier traditions), as Gautama refused to talk about specific subjects. He wanted to keep it as simple as possible. With as little distraction to the disciple as possible. 

To many people with a buddhist background, unfortunatly, have little appreciation to the beauty of existence. It's another black/white strategy. I want away from the black, therefore it doesn't interest me at all, I want only the white. It's a kind of denial and it doesn't feel good, especially when you talk to people who have no spiritual background. They could think it's a very sad point of view.

Of course it's true. Desire is the root of dukkha.

But does every desire end in dukkha?

No.

Some of the best insights one can gain come from sheer involvement with the universe around.

 

2 hours ago, SkyPanther said:

The absurdity of playing a game of "hide and seek"(with yourself) is only fun till you figure out the game and find what you were seeking.

Agree absolutly. It's a long road until the "hide and seek" turns into "Aha! Aha!". I'm glad if you entered this stream.

 

Kind regards,
Chris

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[SkyPanther]

47 minutes ago, Isle of View said:

@SkyPanther

Was this a response to me or The Village?

:-)

All of life is a process. That's very true from my perspective. And all we humans do is some kind of process (every doing-ness or activity is a process with an outcome). If we comprehend what we are doing, we will process it in the direction of desired outcome. If we can continuously process something to the desired outcome, we speak of mastery of the subject.

Liberation is the ultimate goal of many traditions and many paths. Many different backgrounds. Many different belief systems as to what is supposed to happen and how it will happen and which is the best way to bring about the final dissolution.

One thing is for sure, what you resolve today, you won't need to resolve tomorrow.
What you comprehend today, won't confuse you tomorrow.

Buddhism for me is, behind all the beautiful traditions that came from its influence, a very practical approach. With very practical advice, practice and explenations. It's very limited (or so it seems compared to many earlier traditions), as Gautama refused to talk about specific subjects. He wanted to keep it as simple as possible. With as little distraction to the disciple as possible. 

To many people with a buddhist background, unfortunatly, have little appreciation to the beauty of existence. It's another black/white strategy. I want away from the black, therefore it doesn't interest me at all, I want only the white. It's a kind of denial and it doesn't feel good, especially when you talk to people who have no spiritual background. They could think it's a very sad point of view.

Of course it's true. Desire is the root of dukkha.

But does every desire end in dukkha?

No.

Some of the best insights one can gain come from sheer involvement with the universe around.

 

Agree absolutly. It's a long road until the "hide and seek" turns into "Aha! Aha!". I'm glad if you entered this stream.

 

Kind regards,
Chris

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

It was to either of you. 

I agree with your perspective.  

One thing that I did want to add from my experience, is that nature is beautiful...(we even found a pattern in nature and beauty and called it the fibonacci sequence)  but so is space, and humanity as a whole, and all the things we have created. With all our struggles, defeats, wins, discoveries, atrocities, hopes, etc...

But with that view, is a sort of irreverent metta. Not sure of a different way of putting it. There is peace, calm, irreverence, acceptance, and appreciation all mixed into one state of being.

I would not class that as "black" per se, nor "white".  The word that sums it up is a happy "ok".

Edited April 12, 2016 by SkyPanther

[Isle of View]

Cool!

I could write on and on, but need to do some meditation now.

I think we both know where each of us is coming from, so let's stop talking about the obvious for now. :-)

 

Kind regards, 
Chris

[SkyPanther]

4 minutes ago, Isle of View said:

Cool!

I could write on and on, but need to do some meditation now.

I think we both know where each of us is coming from, so let's stop talking about the obvious for now. :-)

 

Kind regards, 
Chris

LOL, agreed.   I wish you a great meditation session!

[Jonathan]

@SkyPanther @Isle of View Simply jaw dropping! Both of you

   It reminds of an Alan Watts video I saw a few years ago. I've still only had glimpses into the state of consciousness of feeling that I am the whole universe.Nonetheless this video had evoked a curious fascination in me when I was younger. Quite a delightful video.

 

 

[SkyPanther]

1 hour ago, The Village Idiot said:

@SkyPanther @Isle of View Simply jaw dropping! Both of you

   It reminds of an Alan Watts video I saw a few years ago. I've still only had glimpses into the state of consciousness of feeling that I am the whole universe.Nonetheless this video had evoked a curious fascination in me when I was younger. Quite a delightful video.

 

 

Great video;  A lot of the stuff he talks about here are touched on in his book "The Book" I really liked it.

There is another video that is connected to this one that I really like as well:

 

 

 

Edited April 12, 2016 by SkyPanther