Ken Wilbur, Boomeriitis, The Mean Green Meme.

[Azrael]

2 minutes ago, Leo Gura said:

Soviet Union was Red/Blue not Green.

That's true. As are far-left identity-politics people (not leftists in general ofc).

4 minutes ago, Leo Gura said:

His conflation of Soviet Union with America and socialism is abysmally wrong-headed.

I think that he makes a strong point in reaction to the far-left people. You cannot predict how an ideology (leftism) that is coming up right now will develop over time and whether it is good or bad. One is foolish to disregard historic events that show outcomes of certain ideologies. Although, you are right to say that this should not hold you back too much to develop the system further.

9 minutes ago, Leo Gura said:

The most advanced, developed, happiest, and healthiest countries in the world are: Norway, Sweden, Denmark, Iceland, Finland, Netherlands, etc. They are stage Green, verging on Yellow. Yes, they pay more taxes so that society is more even and fair for average people.

I know that very well as I have actually been in those countries and live in a comparable one myself. These countries including Germany also let in tremendous amounts of Muslim refugees and try to integrate them into the society (using that money that you talked about). This is ofc due to leftist policies.

I argue that these countries will loose their happiness and healthiness by a large amount in the attempt to integrate these refugees. This is actually one of the main reasons why I will leave Germany. I actually track how crime and such things develop in my country and the neighbouring ones and can assess what the policies in the last 10 years changed. Not such a paradise as you think it is.

Btw, if you want a paradise. Check out Switzerland.

19 minutes ago, Leo Gura said:

His wisdom is not so practical when it polarizes young white males into demonizing stage Green, collectivism, post-modernism, and women's/minority rights. His audience has not integrated these things at all. Nor has JP.

From what I have seen so far, most of his actual content (which is long educational discussions about psychology and philosophy) is not very demonizing at all (in contrast to how the media reports on him). Most of his university students were women btw. The practicality of his wisdom is assessed by how much he helps an individual in his own life.

In all of your comments I think you confuse that JP attacks stage Green which he doesn't. As I stated before he is well aware of the need of leftists to counter the right. All he is attacking is the far-left that IS NOT Green but red/blue as it promotes radical ideas that are far beyond reason.

[Space]

6 hours ago, Azrael said:

If you find that this talk is pure climate denial, I think you are over-generalizing.

 

I do agree with you that he does have some value to offer, but he's so bitter and depressing about everything (particularly in that video!).

[Aimblack]

9 hours ago, Leo Gura said:

That's really my only criticism of the Majority Report. As Green, they are too adversarial against Orange & Blue, thus deepening the polarization.

But that's just how Green is. It ain't yet Yellow.

I thought about sharing Spiral Dynamics with them, but they would probably demonize me for it. Green does not want to give up its hatred of Orange.

I disagree speaking from experience majority report with their style was what dragged me out of my conservatism-lite and libertarian position. They assert that they are right and proceed to explain why they are. Their mocking tone correctly shows that that their position isn't equally as viable as their opponents. And when their opponents respond with: "how rude you are" it exposes them for not being able to argue on a factual level which is quite compelling for a person who is in deep orange.Especially because the motto:" facts don't care about your feelings" could be the phrase that encapsulates orange perfectly. TL;DR Seeing orange people get beat into a position that they are so vocally against is what makes majority report good. Maybe you would enjoy David Pakman more ?  

[purerogue]

26 minutes ago, Space said:

I do agree with you that he does have some value to offer, but he's so bitter and depressing about everything (particularly in that video!).

He is not bitter , he understand how complex everything actually is, not one perspective yelling without having actual solutions, or having some idea of what might work , but having no idea how it will effect everything around us. 

[Leo Gura]

9 hours ago, Azrael said:

I argue that these countries will loose their happiness and healthiness by a large amount in the attempt to integrate these refugees. This is actually one of the main reasons why I will leave Germany.

A refugee crisis created by a stage Orange overactive American capitalist military-industrial complex. The one JP is defending. It was obvious that the Neo-Con's wars would cause all sorts of systemic blowback. If the USA had a stage Green government there would be a lot less refugees and terrorism. The irony is that conservatives are creating the very thing they hate: hordes of angry brown Muslims. Just wait until the effects of global warming kick in. The refugee problem will become 10x worse thanks to Orange.

Integrating refugees is a valid issue. A nation cannot integrate an unlimited number of refugees. But this must be carefully distinguished from ethnocentric objections to taking in refugees. For example the USA can support millions more refugees. Conservatives who oppose immigration here are not doing it on systemic-collapse grounds but on ethnocentric grounds. They don't like brown foreigners diluting "their" country.

9 hours ago, Azrael said:

In all of your comments I think you confuse that JP attacks stage Green which he doesn't.

You have not watched enough of his political commentary.

In his university lectures he does not demonize as much as in his political commentary. And it's his political commentary which made him famous.

JP's entire public career is predicated on attacking Green. He makes millions of dollars directly off that. His most loyal fans love him because of that.

I hesitate to even post a video rebutting JP because I know his fans will try to attack me, hack my accounts, DDoS attacks, doxxing, swatting, death threats, etc. Because that's how an angry stage Blue/Orange ego behaves.

He has created in anti-feminist, anti-socialist, anti-post-modernist ideological cult.

[Azrael]

23 minutes ago, Leo Gura said:

I hesitate to even post a video rebutting JP because I know his fans will try to attack me, hack my accounts, DDoS attacks, doxxing, swatting, death threats, etc. Because that's how an angry stage Blue/Orange ego behaves.

He has created in anti-feminist, anti-socialist, anti-post-modernist ideological cult.

Can you PM me an example? Because I'm not aware of even one instance in which he behaved how describe him. It really seems like we are talking about different persons for me tbh. He also says himself that he has not have had one instance in his live lectures where people went crazy..

[Leo Gura]

@Azrael An example of what?

His political commentary is all over YouTube and you should be well aware of how the alt-right operates by now.

GamerGate?

David Hogg?

Come on now.

[Arhattobe]

You can be irrational at any developmental level. Jordan Peterson is a rational person in his stage. Trying to teach common sense truths that people in stages above him should have learned, but did not and have not for various reasons.

The liberal culture that might be developmentally beyond where he is great lacks necessary values that he teaches.

Things like responsibility, order and etc.

Ken Wilbers integral model talks about how each stage has to learn and integrate prior stages.

If you don’t, you will demonise people, misunderstand them and run into problems.

Jordan Peterson is not a problem. He will and can be a gateway for productive development  in numerous disenfranchised groups of people.

[Azrael]

1 hour ago, Leo Gura said:

@Azrael An example of what?

An example of a political commentary of JP that is hateful against normal leftist people that don't share radical far-left ideologies. I really think you confuse him attacking normal people for ones that are actual radical and ideological.

[now is forever]

14 minutes ago, Azrael said:

An example of a political commentary of JP that is hateful against normal leftist people that don't share radical far-left ideologies. I really think you confuse him attacking normal people for ones that are actual radical and ideological.

wonder who’s the thinker of that thought...azrael, wonder what’s not radical or normal about that name. you really wanna know it hum? then don’t think let others answer.

[Azrael]

Maybe to give an example of what I mean. In this talk JP talks very ambitiously why he thinks that Post-Modernism is not the way to go. He is ranting a little bit as well, just like you @Leo Gura when you talk about your topics. He and you make a point. That's what needed in this world, so that we can the think clearly about both points to figure out where we are headed.

If you don't like what he says, that's fine. There a lot of stuff that we don't like. But the discussion that he brings about is bitterly needed as our society goes left now for 50+ years and we are not aware of where we are headed. If that kind of rough talk is too much for anyone that wants to have a real discussion, then don't have the discussion but don't expect to be taken seriously.

Real change and practical optimization of big interacting societal systems is not as easy as liking one philosophy over another. It combines being grateful for how far we have come so far and thinking clearly about where to head next. And this needs discussion from both sides.

JP

[Azrael]

5 minutes ago, now is forever said:

wonder who’s the thinker of that thought...azrael, wonder what’s not radical or normal about that name. you really wanna know it hum? then don’t think let others answer.

WTF

[now is forever]

@Azrael

[Leo Gura]

@Azrael He's not outright hateful per se as in he's calling for violence. He just creates a straw man out of Green. JP has a Green shadow. He is denying Green, judging it, etc.

I have posted examples of this on my blog in the past. Like this doozy of ignorance:

But you see, he doesn't need to be hateful. All he needs to do is create this judgmental ideology, this straw man, and poison the well, and the alt-right will do the rest for him. He's a gateway into the alt-right. He himself will never say anything hateful, but his philosophy will give aid and comfort to xenophobia, Islamophobia, racism, misogyny, homophobia, transphobia, socialism-phobia, etc.

It's basically like Fox News. They are never directly hateful per se, but they create toxic propaganda which keeps many people in ignorance and ultimately bolsters judgment and hatred.

The dangerous person teaching your kids is JP. Lol.

[now is forever]

43 minutes ago, Azrael said:

But the discussion that he brings about is bitterly needed as our society goes left now for 50+ years and we are not aware of where we are headed. If that kind of rough talk is too much for anyone that wants to have a real discussion, then don't have the discussion but don't expect to be taken seriously.

yeah well 50+ would mean everything left from the 3reich - are you kidding?

but actually it’s not true as shortly afterwards we had the sozialstaat - what defacto doesn’t exist anymore. so from everything after the 3reich we also arrived at more right.

Edited December 19, 2018 by now is forever

[Leo Gura]

40 minutes ago, Azrael said:

But the discussion that he brings about is bitterly needed as our society goes left now for 50+ years

Our society has been going right for 50+ years.

There is no serious discussion with JP because he does not understand feminism, post-modernism, relativism, socialism, morality, developmental psychology, or spirituality. He is not helping his audience understand these complex and nuanced topics.

I'm willing to bet good money that no JP fan has ever read a single feminist or post-modernist book. So this isn't a discussion so much as it's bigotry.

JP himself is pretty well-read. But his audience is not. So it turns in turns into a one-eyed man leading the blind off a cliff.

But don't take my word for it. Discover for yourself.

[Azrael]

5 hours ago, now is forever said:

yeah well 50+ would mean everything left from the 3reich - are you kidding?

but actually it’s not true as shortly afterwards we had the sozialstaat - what defacto doesn’t exist anymore. so from everything after the 3reich we also arrived at more right.

From the 1960s onward all major national and super-national political decisions convergence into leftist ideals. That's a fact my friend.

[Azrael]

5 hours ago, Leo Gura said:

Our society has been going right for 50+ years.

No, that's wrong.

Here's a list of why that's wrong:

• improvement of women rights
• founding of super-national organizations that keep human and economic standards in all western countries (actually partly a good thing)
• advances in climate change policies
• all the movements, hippies, gays, etc ... that are no publicly respected to some degree
• 1960 movement with all its ideas
• science now publishes everything in English and works together on a global scale (except Russia)
• social services have increased
• making the poor richer
• ...

If you really believe that we are no more "right" than we are in the 1960s, please bring evidence, because it is really false. We are way better off now than 50 years back. This really makes no sense. To your example of JP: I get your point. However, it's not in JP's power to control how famous he gets and how intelligent some of his followers are. He is not calling them out to do anything bad against other people. I think you are way better off with someone that actually talks about important topics, if you like it or not. And ask yourself this: If so many people resonate with him, and all he tells them is to develop properly and take on responsibility, they should all get more intelligent and see that his political commentary isn't sound. And if that's not the case, then he is not wrong, but the leftists are. Because thousands of psychological well-developed men that take on the burden of their live and work for society and themselves, are just more valuable then some identity-politics transgender kids that doesn't get along.

[Outer]

14 minutes ago, Joseph Maynor said:

Eat the grapes and spit out the seeds regarding teachers, Jordan Peterson and otherwise.  At the end of the day, you're the only true teacher for yourself.  Take what's useful and leave what's not from teachers.  Don't cling to teachers or to teachings like a child clinging to a baby-blanket.  We don't even realize we're doing that most of the time. 

You're right on that Joseph.

[Leo Gura]

@Azrael Of course society has become a lot more liberal in many ways, but politically American government has also become toxically conservative in certain respects relative to the FDR era, especially post-Regan.

The highest tax rate has been slashed from 90% to 45%. Corporate tax rates are absurdly low and full of loopholes. Income inequlity has skyrocketed. Average worker wages have stagnated for 30 years. CEO pay has skyrocketed. Money in politics has skyrocketed. Corporate power and lobbying has skyrocketed. Unions have been almost eliminated. Stock buy-backs are legal again. Many industries have been deregulated. Social security and medicare are under attack and would be eliminated if conservatives got their way. Healthcare costs are out of control. The drug war is out of control. Environmental regulations are being dismantled. Public education is being dismantled. Military spending is out of control. Disaster capitalism is rampant. The Republican party has lost all sense of decency, integrity, and truthfulness. Right wing propaganda channels like Fox News and Brietbart are disinforming the populace.

The problem is that the world faces newer, more complex problems than in the 1960's, which demands much greener solutions.

See Noam Chomsky's analysis of the situation.

If income inequality continues at this rate the entire US economy could collapse. Yet here we are talking about a few radical feminist college students who grind JP's gears.