Ken Wilbur, Boomeriitis, The Mean Green Meme.

[kieranperez]

6 hours ago, Leo Gura said:

I don't agree with Shunyamurti that society is regressing. In my view, evolution is always progressing and there is zero mistakes in the universe. The design is perfect. Even when there is an apparent regression, it is always progress.

 

 

6 hours ago, Leo Gura said:

He basically believes in cyclical stuff, not evolution or Spiral Dynamics, which to me sounds absurd.

I actually most agree with you. The contradiction I think is made on Shunyas part I think is that, God is infinitely intelligent so why would postmodernism be a mistake then? Why would the postmodern ego be an exception to the design of evolution? 

I think where my skepticism is raised on your claim is... why can’t reality be cyclical? 

I think one of the overall traps that isn’t addressed enough overall is that evolution doesn’t necessarily mean that human beings get more evolved. The progress of evolution goes beyond the human agenda which I don’t think enough people really look at. I think where it gets hairy for people is when we consider that the introduction technology and AI and maybe AI is the next step up in conscious evolution beyond humans. 

[now is forever]

5 hours ago, Outer said:

Where is Anarchy on the Spiral Dynamics model or Integral Theory?

i must excuse the freedom but most political ideologies have also a philosophical foundation - to understand chaotic group dynamics and developments anarchy can be seen as a natural phenomenon that is foundational at work in any spontaneous liberating happening  (including spontaneous art) involving more than one person and even there it can be part of one person (orange is a form of egoic anarchy) in that sense i think turquoise is not possible without integrating anarchy as philosophy because chaos is part of the human, but maybe it’s just the wrong wording.

Edited December 17, 2018 by now is forever

[Zweistein]

I wonder, if and how the concept of Spiral Dynamics needs be adjusted once a significant number of people know about it.

Of course, it probably speeds up the evolution but at the same time, almost every ego would like to put themselves in higher stages than they actually are. In the worst case, they might say that this model is just complete nonsense and ignore it or start ideologies against it.

I would also assume that stage orange would tend to skip integrating green, or at least not integrate it properly.

[Leo Gura]

1 hour ago, kieranperez said:

I think where my skepticism is raised on your claim is... why can’t reality be cyclical?

It sorta is. A spiral is an upwards moving circle.

Overall reality seems to move towards greater and greater complexity. Society is becoming more and more complex. There can certainly be collapse, but the idea that humans were more evolved 10,000 years ago than today strikes me as wrong.

I do not see how the chaos and egotism of modern society can be avoided through collapse of society. We are more likely to pass through it by growing society, not by abolishing society.

I like Shunya overall, but the apocalyptic aspect of his teachings I do not agree with. I once asked him about ancient Rome and he told me how great it was back then without acknowledging that 40% of the population were slaves. Not so great methinks. I will take post-modernity any day.

[Akira]

Any thoughts on this?

 

[outlandish]

Post-modernism and liberal democracy have problems. But the alternative right now is worse. Leo's right, we don't need less green, we need more. That's the way we build up from where we're at and move forward. The big challenges that we face today as a society can be solved by green and then yellow approaches, they're exacerbated by getting stuck in orange, blue, red. Green doesn't need to shut orange and blue up, it doesn't need to be a rejection of orange and blue, it needs to build on top of orange and blue.

Jordan Peterson has some solid points about free speech and the limits of society's power over the individual. But he's not worth spending too much mental energy on. He's a pretty angry righteous dude. I think he speaks some truth to what needs to be fixed on blue and orange levels, and a bunch of his stuff is getting spun out of proportion to empower some nasty red type people. He reminds my of Ayn Rand, who also had some good points, but if you follow her philosophy all the way it ends up being a miserable state of affairs.

[now is forever]

9 hours ago, Akira said:

Any thoughts on this?

 

many but one that stuck out as an addition to what he says is: i would exchange prejudice into a hibryd of preconception and the inability to place someone else’s judgement before our own judgement if we don’t share mutual understanding, so selfrighteousness as a hurdle.

prejudice=preconception/selfrighteousness

in the context he is talking about and for me he clearly states it will get hard but if we face it it’s doable. 

well we can’t ignore that we are at the brink of a change any change but it will be a change.

but it’s also a matter of how we preconceive the future. it’s not about seing the glass half empty. it is about seing the glass half full even though we are aware it might be half empty, everything else would lead back into the circle of rescuer, victim, scapegoat, watcher.

Edited December 17, 2018 by now is forever

[Cudin]

20 hours ago, Leo Gura said:

I disagree with Ken Wilber's and Shunyamurti's diagnosis of society...

+9000

[Azrael]

On 17.12.2018 at 0:47 AM, Leo Gura said:

Wilber criticizes Green from the above. JP criticizes Green from below. That's a very big difference.

So you would define post-modernist, transgender identity-politics people that are also Marxist as green and thereby higher in development as Jordan Peterson? I would partly agree that JP is blue/orange as most of his talk is concerned with that stage, I just think that the people he is criticising are actually deeply blue masked in green territory. There is a reason why there are no hippies in the news (actually greens) but there are these crazy leftist people promoting mindless bs.

If you follow JP's wisdom that he got from reading tons of books and research, you are a million times better equipped to have a meaningful life and develop compared to the fuzzy thinking that his leftist opponents promote, imo. Btw, the stuff he talks about and his products is basically your life purpose course. Good stuff.

[Leo Gura]

1 hour ago, Azrael said:

So you would define post-modernist, transgender identity-politics people that are also Marxist as green and thereby higher in development as Jordan Peterson?

Yes. The intention of such Green people is fairness for oppressed minorities. Which is a fairly evolved set of values. It is much more evolved than those who cry "white genocide" or complain about the war on Christmas or white males.

The problem is that people like JP and the alt-right media have created a demonized stereotype out of these post-modernist Marxist types. They do not really exist. JP and his ilk have taken like 1% of the most extreme Green folks and smeared all of Green with that. They've created a straw man out of Green and of course the straw man is easy to knock down. But Green is not that straw man. There are many very serious, sane, sober, lovely Green people. And they are higher than JP and his ilk. Radical feminist activists in universities DO NOT represent the majority of stage Green.

Imagine if I smeared all of stage Orange as greedy capitalist pigs who exploit children in sweatshops and kill polar bears for fun. I could create a whole YT channel about that and get millions of followers to agree with my selective outrage. I could create 100's of videos of children in sweatshops, big oil spills, and corporate corruption. That's analogous to what JP and the alt-right media is doing to Green. The reality is much more nuanced.

The biggest tragedy is that JP and his ilk are missing several key lessons from post-modernism. Regardless of any excesses or faults, post-modernism made crucial intellectual discoveries which are being denied by JP. Like the relativity of all cultures, all value systems, and the socially constructed nature of all categories and paradigms. This is very important to understand into order to create a peaceful and well-functioning world. You are not a serious intellectual if you think that the white race's value system or the capitalist value system is objectively superior to others. The acknowledgment of relativity is vital to the development of higher levels of morality.

Stage Orange sorely lacks the understanding of relativity. It also fails to appreciate the importance of collectivism -- since we do live in a community. We are not individuals who get to do whatever we please.

Is it an accident that JP is a climate change denier? He's even in denial that he's in denial! This is not going to cut it in the future. We need a lot more ecological awareness if we want to thrive.

 

[CreamCat]

I'm really hyped about Leo's future video about post-modernism!!

[CreamCat]

On 12/17/2018 at 2:43 PM, Outer said:

A transition to a post-statist world, if it were ever to happen, wouldn't be fast nor would it eliminate everyone's wealth.

I think a post-statist world is possible in some future configurations. To a degree, I understand what you mean by anarchy. An actual post-statist world may not be the kind of anarchy you talked about.

To me, a government where basic freedom(my standard of basic freedom is far higher than the current standard) is almost guaranteed is almost as good as your ideal anarchy.

Edited December 18, 2018 by CreamCat

[Leo Gura]

If you want to get a fair sense of Green politics I suggest you check out the YouTube channel, Majority Report. They are the epitome of Green, but notice that they are not some kooky student activist with utopian ideas. Their political analysis is sharp, nuanced, pragmatic, and intelligent -- despite their biases. They are smart socialists and if you listen to them long enough you might become a socialist yourself.

Of course, they are not Yellow. So don't expect them to be as wise as Yellow or the stuff I share on Actualized. Nor am I suggesting you should become a socialist.

Just make sure you are getting a fair assessment of each stage. Look for the best examples of each stage, not the worst. You can find monstrous and kooky people at each stage if you look hard enough. For example, I could smear all of stage Orange as being like Trump. But that would be very unfair to Orange. He is like the worst of the worst of Orange.

For another great example of Green see Bernie Sanders. He's not some kook. He's got a very sensible agenda and his value system is very advanced. Good luck finding a politician with a more advanced value system and higher integrity.

[CreamCat]

16 minutes ago, Leo Gura said:

If you want to get a fair sense of Green politics I suggest you check out the YouTube channel, Majority Report. They are the epitome of Green, but notice that they are not some kooky student activist with utopian ideas. Their political analysis is sharp, nuanced, pragmatic, and intelligent -- despite their biases. They are smart socialists and if you listen to them long enough you might become a socialist yourself.

Do you mean the one by Sam Seder? I just watched one of his videos. I think Jordan Peterson will like talking with him. Maybe, I should tell Jordan Peterson about Sam Seder.

Edited December 18, 2018 by CreamCat

[Leo Gura]

@CreamCat Watch 100 of his videos. 1 video is nothing. The higher up the Spiral you go the more nuanced the work gets, the more study it takes to appreciate.

Sam Seder would tear JP apart like a rabid dog JP will not be interested in that.

[Joel3102]

Watching the Majority Report, especially Michael Brooks go to town on Rubin and Harris is oddly satisfying to watch

[Outer]

1 hour ago, Leo Gura said:

If you want to get a fair sense of Green politics I suggest you check out the YouTube channel, Majority Report. They are the epitome of Green, but notice that they are not some kooky student activist with utopian ideas. Their political analysis is sharp, nuanced, pragmatic, and intelligent -- despite their biases. They are smart socialists and if you listen to them long enough you might become a socialist yourself.

Of course, they are not Yellow. So don't expect them to be as wise as Yellow or the stuff I share on Actualized. Nor am I suggesting you should become a socialist.

Just make sure you are getting a fair assessment of each stage. Look for the best examples of each stage, not the worst. You can find monstrous and kooky people at each stage if you look hard enough. For example, I could smear all of stage Orange as being like Trump. But that would be very unfair to Orange. He is like the worst of the worst of Orange.

For another great example of Green see Bernie Sanders. He's not some kook. He's got a very sensible agenda and his value system is very advanced. Good luck finding a politician with a more advanced value system and higher integrity.

 

[Leo Gura]

36 minutes ago, Joel3102 said:

Watching the Majority Report, especially Michael Brooks go to town on Rubin and Harris is oddly satisfying to watch

That's really my only criticism of the Majority Report. As Green, they are too adversarial against Orange & Blue, thus deepening the polarization.

But that's just how Green is. It ain't yet Yellow.

I thought about sharing Spiral Dynamics with them, but they would probably demonize me for it. Green does not want to give up its hatred of Orange.

[Azrael]

4 hours ago, Leo Gura said:

Yes. The intention of such Green people is fairness for oppressed minorities. Which is a fairly evolved set of values. It is much more evolved than those who cry "white genocide" or complain about the war on Christmas or white males. [...]

You make a lot of fair points in your answer basically saying that the "Green" people aren't as bad as portrayed by the alt-right media and JP. Also that they make intellectual discoveries that push the moral landscape forward. I think though that you mis-characterize JP. I don't know how aware you are of his clinical work, his popular work on individual responsibility and his understanding of past political systems.

JP is a big proponent of a "fair fight" between the left and the right (politically) as it is needed to keep the competence hierarchies fair and give enough chances to the dispossessed to become successful. He attributes a lot of positive facts to the "Greens" in the society and weighs them as equally needed as the right to balance the societal system and keep it fair for everyone.

His critique of the far-left identity-politics people (that he does not confuse with the Greens / normal leftists) is based on the historic fact that every instance of socialist policies ended in catastrophes like the Soviet Union (which you probably know quite well ). This makes him belief that he should warn the people when he sees popular leftist movements that are radical enough in their core beliefs to change society in a bad way. Now, though I support him on this one, he is clearly not looking enough into how socialism can develop the society further, that's for sure.

Other than that (which the media takes and puts out of context the entire time [to make money off him]) he mainly and especially right now talks about individual responsibility and how you can become a better human being by bringing psychological science to the society. If you read his book or watch his videos on these topics, I'd bet that you would support 80% of his speech in these fields.

Is he a good source for how to progress through the stages, enlightenment and so on? No. His wisdom lies in more practical manners. But I find that most popular persons have one key area in which they shine and that's it. So, I think if you see him in this more holistic way you really find tremendous value in what he has to offer.

If you find that this talk is pure climate denial, I think you are over-generalizing. In my estimation he weighs the value of climate change and what we can actually do about it with other problems to which we know solutions to but don't act. But I also wouldn't agree with him on this one. I think you should really push the right energy forms to be "good enough".

Lastly, I'd to say that none of you socialist, leftist Americans really knows how it looks like if this ideology is applied on a practical political level. Come to France or Germany and see it for yourself. Pay 35 - 45% income tax plus tons of other fees to than spend the 30 - 40% of the money you have left on healthcare, housing and food.

Edited December 18, 2018 by Azrael

[Leo Gura]

1 hour ago, Azrael said:

is based on the historic fact that every instance of socialist policies ended in catastrophes like the Soviet Union (which you probably know quite well ). This makes him belief that he should warn the people when he sees popular leftist movements that are radical enough in their core beliefs to change society in a bad way. Now, though I support him on this one, he is clearly not looking enough into how socialism can develop the society further, that's for sure.

Soviet Union was Red/Blue not Green.

His conflation of Soviet Union with America and socialism is abysmally wrong-headed.

The most advanced, developed, happiest, and healthiest countries in the world are: Norway, Sweden, Denmark, Iceland, Finland, Netherlands, etc. They are stage Green, verging on Yellow. Yes, they pay more taxes so that society is more even and fair for average people. The metric of success is not tax rate but average happiness, education, health, and success levels.

His wisdom is not so practical when it polarizes young white males into demonizing stage Green, collectivism, post-modernism, environmentalism, and women's/minority rights. His audience has not integrated these things at all. Nor has JP.

Meanwhile American society is drowning in pathological Orange to the point of global collapse.

That's like worrying about jellyfish when there's a great white shark headed right at you.