Ken Wilbur, Boomeriitis, The Mean Green Meme.

[Freyah]

Hi,

Was just listening to first bit of lastest Video @Leo Gura on Spiral Dynamics. 

Leo talks about Jordan Petersens crusade against too much 'green' in universities. I think it is the Extreme Green manifestations he is rallying against though.... the book Boomeritis by Ken Wilber explains this well. Anyone else read it and found it useful ....?

[Leo Gura]

Wilber criticizes Green from the above. JP criticizes Green from below. That's a very big difference.

JP's solutions are not Yellow ones but Blue/Orange ones.

[kieranperez]

@Leo Gura have you listened to Doshin Roshi's position on both Jordan Peterson and Green/postmodernism as well as Shunyamurti's take on what he calls "the postmodern ego" and his whole thing on the Kali Yuga and the ego is actually devolving? It's almost like a paradox really between these 2 because they both have truth in them. On the one hand, we can clearly see that there has been progress in culture, explained very clearly through Spiral Dynamics. For example, the abolition of traditional slavery. On the other hand, we're noticing now just how dysfunctional the modern and postmodern ego is really becoming to the point of incompetency which could really lead to our annihilation. Shunyamurti has some great talks and explanations on this as I'm sure you're well aware of. However, both you've mentioned that human beings are too selfish to die off so easy (which I definitely see the wisdom in that insight) and even Wilber has said in the past how we easily dismiss too easily the creative will and power of the collective human spirit in the face of great challenge (basically saying what you're saying but in a more... "polished" way for the public to swallow). Would love to get your take on this.

 

[Leo Gura]

I disagree with Ken Wilber's and Shunyamurti's diagnosis of society.

The problem is not too much Green, the problem is too much Blue/Orange. At least in American society.

Shunyamurti has some wacky ideas about human evolution. He basically believes in cyclical stuff, not evolution or Spiral Dynamics, which to me sounds absurd.

I would be very suspicious of anyone who ties to sell you on the idea that society is going to collapse. Maybe it will, but most likely it won't, and either way, society today is far more evolved and better than it ever was in human history.

There definitely is a post-modern ego, but that is totally expected. No one ever claimed that post-modernity is a transcendence of ego. There is still ego, but it's far superior to stage Blue or Orange ego.

I don't agree with Shunyamurti that society is regressing. In my view, evolution is always progressing and there is zero mistakes in the universe. The design is perfect. Even when there is an apparent regression, it is always progress.

Ego is not some new development. Ego was always worse in the past.

Post-modernity is not too rampant but far too lacking in society on the whole. In very narrow academic circles it might be too rampant, but academic circles do not at all represent the center of gravity of the population. Academia accounts for less than 1%. The average American has no idea what post-modernity is and could benefit a lot from its lessons.

Politically right now in America our problem is not too much post-modernity but too much modernity and traditionalism. Just look at the abject intellectual and moral bankruptcy of the Republican party and their corrupt and abysmal public policy proposals. Conservatives are sticking their head in the sand. JP is one of them.

Telling people to worry about the excesses of stage Green right now is a misdiagnosis of the problem. The problem is people who cling to Blue & Orange, and the ideological propaganda being marketed to them by the ilk of JP, Fox News, Steve Bannon, etc. The real problem is an excess of Blue & Orange.

[Freyah]

@kieranperez

im sure those videos have something worthwhile to share... I just tried, but Doshin Roshis delivery is... just.... so.... spiritually obsequeous I can barely listen through squirming. Uggh! I'll try again later....hopefully. 

[purerogue]

Quote

I don't agree with Shunyamurti that society is regressing. In my view, evolution is always progressing and there is zero mistakes in the universe. The design is perfect. Even when there is an apparent regression, it is always progress.

That is thought I think is very interesting and I have thought about it  too, after worst things come huge positive changes, if bad things would not happen , humans would not be able to learn and make positive changes, even though there are huge problems now, you can not really say that public has regressed, you could say it has regressed in certain areas , but then again , it is bad change that might give huge positive changes in future. 

Edited December 17, 2018 by purerogue

[Leo Gura]

Never forget that slavery exists in all societies except modern and post-modern ones. Anything below modernism will involve tribal warfare, ethnic cleansing, brutal oppression of minorities, rape, racism, and enslavement.

Be careful not to romanticize early cultures. They would enslave you and rape your family if given the chance.

[Freyah]

@Leo Gura I'm wondering if the book you are reading about yellow economics is "MEMEnomics: the next Generational Economic System" by Said Dawlabani.. 

There is a Facebook group, that is focussed on this model "the original Beck/Graves spiral dynamics" (I guess as opposed to Ken Wilburs take on it- they are quite anti-Ken within this group- the hard-core members anyway-) and Said is a regular contributor and seems to know Don Beck personally. There have been a few queries/comments regarding a video of yours someone posted- they were impressed with the number of views on a 2 hour vid on a topic like SD.

There are some good thinkers on that page, why don't you contribute...? 

[Leo Gura]

@Freyah Yes, but I have no interest in participating in a partisan battle between Don Beck's followers and Ken Wilber's. That is like idiocy 2.0. Both men's work is great.

[Freyah]

@Leo Gura yes, participating in that sort of battle would be tedious- but the site is not about that, it's more about the application and education of people about SD. Most people are on that page to learn more. You have a good way of expressing things with clarity. It'd be good. You'd help a bunch of others ready to learn more, that haven't come across Actualised. I gather the demographic is older on this page. Go on! Think about it at least... ? As you say, SD is such a useful model of understanding....

 

Edited December 17, 2018 by Freyah

[Outer]

Where is Anarchy on the Spiral Dynamics model or Integral Theory?

[Freyah]

I'd say red..

[Leo Gura]

@Freyah I'm sure they are are lovely people but I don't use Facebook and I don't participate in any kinds of groups.

I'm not really interested in becoming a Spiral Dynamics expert. My job ends with introducing you guys to Spiral Dynamics, which I feel like I've almost completed now. Now it's up to you to do with it what you will. I got bigger fish to fry.

[Freyah]

@Leo Gura Sure. I'm pleased to have had that introduction to it. Thanks  for your time in presenting that wealth of info.

[Outer]

35 minutes ago, Freyah said:

I'd say red..

So Alan Watts, Chuang-tzu, Lao-tzu, were all stage Red?

And...? David Friedman, Milton Friedman, Murray Rothbard..?

 

[Leo Gura]

There are various versions of anarchism as an ideology. There are flavors of it in Orange and flavors of it in even in Green.

You have to distinguish anarchy as a political ideology vs actual anarchy, which nobody actually wants.

Most ideological anarchy is just mental-masturbation mixed with naivety and inexperience with how the world works.

When your daughter is being raped and your mother enslaved, your high ideals of anarchy will fly out the window. The ego is actually terrified of actual anarchy as that means lack of control, disorder, and death.

In an anarchic system all that would happen is that the strongest, most ruthless, more power-hungry would enslave you and you family. Order would be installed to serve the dictator. Only you would end up at the bottom of the hierarchy as one of the slaves. Unless maybe you were willing to claw your way to the middle by stabbing people in the back. This is stage Red.

[Outer]

Just now, Leo Gura said:

There are various versions of anarchism as an ideology. There are flavors of it in Orange and flavors of it in even in Green.

You have to distinguish anarchy as a political ideology vs actual anarchy, which nobody actually wants.

Most ideological anarchy is just mental-masturbation mixed with naivety and inexperience with how the world works.

When your daughter is being raped and your mother enslaved, your high ideals of anarchy will fly out the window.

Anarchy is simply without government, or rulers. It doesn't remove anything else. David Friedman has explained thoughtfully how for instance law enforcement and the justice system would work in such a society. If your daughter was raped and mother enslaved, you would be paying an Agency, which you've chosen based on your preference of laws, even before, as insurance, to track down the assailants, and then deal with the assailant's agency along with a private court to make a deal.

 

[Outer]

But, David, what about the poor who can't afford an Agency?

 

[Leo Gura]

2 hours ago, Outer said:

Anarchy is simply without government, or rulers. It doesn't remove anything else. David Friedman has explained thoughtfully how for instance law enforcement and the justice system would work in such a society. If your daughter was raped and mother enslaved, you would be paying an Agency, which you've chosen based on your preference of laws, even before, as insurance, to track down the assailants, and then deal with the assailant's agency along with a private court to make a deal.

Ahahahahaha!

That Agency and private court would already be owned by the dictator and his cronies. When you come to them to report the crime, they will spit in your face, take your wallet, and laugh you out of the building.

Libertarians have no idea how human nature really works.

There is no such thing as "without government or rulers". Without rulers, the strongest most ruthless narcissist becomes the ruler, enslaving everyone to his whims.

What you are describing is worse than modern day Iraq or Afghanistan.

[Outer]

41 minutes ago, Leo Gura said:

Ahahahahaha!

That Agency and private court would already be owned by the dictator and his cronies. When you come to them to report the crime, they will spit in your face, take your wallet, and laugh you out of the building.

Libertarians have no idea how human nature really works.

There is no such thing as "without government or rulers". Without rulers, the strongest most ruthless narcissist becomes the ruler, enslaving everyone to his whims.

What you are describing is worse than modern day Iraq or Afghanistan.

A transition to a post-statist world, if it were ever to happen, wouldn't be fast nor would it eliminate everyone's wealth. If one agency would run with your money, you could always go to another one. It wouldn't be that expensive. Immediately upon and during transition there would be thousands of agencies competing for your money.

Nonetheless I don't see it happening. It's just intellectual thinking. I'm not a libertarian. I am just sharing ideas. If you knew how I was like IRL you would have no clue why I am saying these things.

p.s. There wouldn't be an agency settling with yours and a court for throwing you into a jail cell for a joint of weed or 5-MeO-DMT though.

Edited December 17, 2018 by Outer