Self-discipline vs Freedom

[non_nothing]

How can one identify himself with doing with freedom from mind/ego?

Why discipline arises in the first place? 

Can discipline be created out of fear?

Why one would be disciplined if no fear or need there?

Why would one want to wage his freedom of mind into the discipline of doing?

Can we really talk about self-discipline while in reality there is noself? This question will not make sense if you think it as "can you borrow 12 apples from a basket where 10 apples are there or something like can you borrow 10 dollars from a bank account there there is zero amount of money in account" this question will rather make sense to experiential people.

[Joseph Maynor]

 

[non_nothing]

19 hours ago, Joseph Maynor said:

 

This must be a joke... will watch it.

 

15 hours ago, Yousef said:

Absolute sanity leads to absolute insanity. And vice versa. 

Also. .absolute freedom leads to absolute chaos. And vice versa. 

Every thing and it's opposite goes in full circles for eternity and thereis no absolute state.  All opposites are relative.  It's yin and yang forever. 

Yet the whole circle is the absolute. 

So stop identifying with one of the opposites. But with the whole thing altogether. 

Yes I got what you're saying but what would be the balance point?

[ground]

There is no contradiction between discipline and freedom. Why? Because you can freely decide to apply discipline or not. One who knows freedom knows when discipline is advisable and conducive.

[Jack River]

Most excellent thread topic idea on freedom and self imposed discipline.

There is fosho a big difference. There is discipline of effort and there is the discipline that arises when effort comes to an end. One is not tainted by psychological conditions(thought with its excluding characteristics/contradictory desires) and the other is. 

Freedom as truth/love is its own discipline. Not limited to the past. Not limited to control/conflict. 

Edited December 17, 2018 by Jack River

[non_nothing]

1 hour ago, Jack River said:

Most excellent thread topic idea on freedom and self imposed discipline.

There is fosho a big difference. There is discipline of effort and there is the discipline that arises when effort comes to an end. One is not tainted by psychological conditions(thought with its excluding characteristics/contradictory desires) and the other is. 

Freedom as truth/love is its own discipline. Not limited to the past. Not limited to control/conflict. 

Thank you for wise words. But I'm having hard time understanding the sentences of yours not having mother tongue of English. Can you elaborate with some examples or simplify some things for me, may I ask?

1 hour ago, ground said:

There is no contradiction between discipline and freedom. Why? Because you can freely decide to apply discipline or not. One who knows freedom knows when discipline is advisable and conducive.

Can you explain when discipline is advisable and "Conductive"

1 hour ago, Yousef said:

Everything will balance itself on its own. It's like a natural law .

  You don't need to force anything.  I guess you already know that there's no self or self control.  For example try to be lazy and sit in your bed all day. .you will literally feel irresistible urge  to go out there and do something. And if you are working all day you can't help yourself but to crave your bed.  It's like a jelly ball or something like that. .if you catch it from one side. .the other side will pops. And if you catch the other side ..the first one will pop.

I know exactly what u are talking about and actually being quite honest, I have done and experienced a lot the things you gave as examples. I guess It would be very accurate to say I got a bit dizzy because of that bouncing ball back and forth between. Can you help me a bit on this one?

[ground]

42 minutes ago, non_nothing said:

Can you explain when discipline is advisable and "Conductive"

'conducive' was the word I used. E.g. when due to conditioning one would - without discipline - impulsively act in a way that would have results which are not conducive to the goal of liberation. In such a case discipline that entails refraining from impulsive action is advisable and conducive.

[Aquarius]

Discipline is out of unconditional love, not fear. Fear and love are opposites. Hate is a reaction to attachment, not the opposite of love. 

Freedom comes from non-attachment and self-love. 

Freedom + discipline = self-mastery

Mastering yourself means you will never hurt anyone again. Your true nature is love, your mind is simply clouded with fear. Fear of losing. Now see why authenticity is so important?

Ground, center, shield. Then you can have the shittiest job even and you'll still enjoy it. True freedom never came from money, but freedom brings abundance (note I used 'abundance' instead of the word 'money') when one is disciplined. 

Make peace with yourself. And then with everyone you've ever hurt. Then you'll be free. 

[ajasatya]

true self-discipline is freedom.
frustration due to lack of self-discipline is a cyclic prison.

[Consilience]

24 minutes ago, ajasatya said:

true self-discipline is freedom.

This 100%

Freedom, the ability for life to flow in any direction, may only occur if there is a path for that flow. I imagine discpline as the detachment from psychological impulse, and therefore a “freedom” from the impusles of desires, aversions to pain, and attachment to suffering, etc.

It’s difficult to fully articulate but ultimate freedom IS ultimate discpline. This is somewhat paradoxical relative to the absolute truth of no self, and yet nonetheless when the self structure is operating and pulling “you” with its never ending streams of impulse, authentic being cannot take place. So tapping into this beingness, this freedom, requires a “discipline” to remain detached from impulse. But discpline itself is simply the being with impulse rather than acting upon impulse, and therefore you could conceptualize it as a freedom from psychological impulse all together. 

This is my perspective. So to reiterate: freedom = discipline

Edited December 17, 2018 by Consilience

[Aquarius]

@Consilience When you act out of unconditional love, every impulse of yours is beneficial. Impulse in itself is not a bad thing and should never be repressed. Getting in flow state and remaining there is the best thing that can happen, but you'll get in trouble if intentions aren't pure. It's worth mentioning purification of intentions. And clearing of wounds, of course. 

[Aquarius]

@Yousef There is a self and suffering is a real thing. Life matters. Don't go around telling people to deny their self. It's not helpful. Teach them to rise above suffering instead.

[Jack River]

To cultivate Discipline to bring about psychological order is a movement of control, conflict, resistance. The self cultivates according to its past accumulation(psychological experiences that cause pain/pleasure and then acts on behalf of those past experiences. So a self acts on those self centered reactions and confomrs to thought(knowledge/experience-practices/routines/habits to bring about a in we state of peace/freedom. This is an attempt of the controller controlling “its” experiences as if they were separate distinct fragments. This implies the movement of time(“my” past, my prejudice/bias according to that past which is resistance in motion itself or fear). To move within this pattern of time(self-fear) means all actions taken or ‘self-discipline’ has its root in fear/confusion/conflict. Therefore every action taken leads to psychological contradiction. Since fear/resistance are at play that implies fragments are in opposition with one another. So we move from one condition to another, one state of pleasure to another state of pain in like back and forth teeter tauter. 

Psychologically...Freedom means freedom without the past distorting, corrupting, excluding in order to self sustain a sense of psychological permanence. In that there can be a psychological learning of living free of past accumulation(fear, pleasures, seeking validation, contentment, respect, and etc. all the movement of self(psychological becoming and not becoming. This means that every action we take is rooted in self centered fragmentary/contradictory desire. To project what has been or what we want to be according to the past. In this implies to psychological resist now which obviously leads to problems in relationship with ourselves/others/environment. As can be obseved now by observing the way things are. 

Freedom psychologically allows for learning without identification with the past(thought). To learn/observe with evaluation according to our own bias/prejudice(likes-dislikes/choice as the confused illusory chooser or time). 

In freedom allows for discipline untainted by fear/control as the controller, psychological evolution(time). 

 

Edited December 17, 2018 by Jack River

[Nahm]

51 minutes ago, ajasatya said:

true self-discipline is freedom.
frustration due to lack of self-discipline is a cyclic prison.

☺️

[Anton Rogachevski]

On 12/16/2018 at 9:16 PM, non_nothing said:

How can one identify himself with doing with freedom from mind/ego?

The master is doing many things while not doing anything. (Zen rephrasing)

Remember that the truth is neither of the terms, so there's neither discipline, nor lack of discipline. The answer is ineffable.

 

On 12/16/2018 at 9:16 PM, non_nothing said:

Why discipline arises in the first place? 

 

It arises as a temporary solution in the realm of manifestation until one realises there's no use for it.

 

On 12/16/2018 at 9:16 PM, non_nothing said:

Can discipline be created out of fear?

 

It sure can, but it's really up to you.

 

On 12/16/2018 at 9:16 PM, non_nothing said:

Why one would be disciplined if no fear or need there?

 

To reach effortlessness, one must first exert effort.

 

On 12/16/2018 at 9:16 PM, non_nothing said:

Can we really talk about self-discipline while in reality there is no-self?

Be very cautious saying this. This is when the master hits you with a stick and ask: "Then who is it that screams." No-self implies self, and therefore is self. To truly know what it means one must contact it directly. 

One cannot take non-dual truths, and then use them to logically conclude things about the dual, or really believe any non dual truth. These two paradigms are incompatible. Very dangerous activity, Bodhidharma refers to it as devilry. (The zen teaching of bodhidharma - amazing book!)

 

 

In any case, self discipline is one of the best things that ever happened to me. Meditation is self discipline. Obviously it's best when it's matched with self-compassion, lack of expectations, and learning to love it, as Alan Watts puts it: Work as play.   

Edited December 17, 2018 by Anton Rogachevski

[Joseph Maynor]

Enlightenment is only one major part of Personal Development Work and not the only part.  Taken the wrong way, Enlightenment can actually be a block to your Personal Development Work when you start believing that you have no control.  It’s not Enlightenment or Personal Development — It’s Enlightenment and Personal Development.

Edited December 17, 2018 by Joseph Maynor

[Jack River]

When I Control to bring about psychological security/satisfaction i am bound to live a contradictory life. 

Controlling in the psychological realm doesn’t imply order. The ending of psychological evolution leads to a life of order where action is not born of the image(fear/frustration/anxiety and such). 

Then there can be a living free of hypocrisy. Free of image imposition/projection and conflict in relationship. Control is a mechanism for function, a practical mechanism (tool) to use thought in daily life. 

If we are slaves to control inward(psychologically) that divison, confusion, filled by conflict will be expressed in our daily life. Look at things the way they are now and you can be sure that is the result of this psychological control dictating the actions we take in the day to day. 

Without psychological freedom can there be a “spiritual” (the newness of the now)?

if not what’s the point, who wants to live as the past, what has been? Isn’t that a dead life? 

‘Self Discipline’ is a function of thought. That’s where the limit is drawn. 

Edited December 17, 2018 by Jack River

[Aquarius]

@Yousef Careful not to throw out the baby with the bathwater. For me, I don't suffer anymore, but I'm not a desensitized robot either. Been where you are talking about, and it was so horrifying that I wished to be tortured instead by some sadist.

You're too idealistic. Suffering and emotions are two very, very, very different things.

[Anton Rogachevski]

12 minutes ago, Yousef said:

suffering

"Suffering is Nirvana, Nirvana is suffering."

[tsuki]

Freedom and restraint are not exclusive, but interdependent.
Freedom is the possibility of performing an action, but the action itself results in restraint.
For example:

• you are free to choose your style of clothing, but your style is expressed by choosing to not wear certain combination of clothes.
• if you have money, you are free to spend it, but spending it constrains it to a certain physical form (a good) that is not as easily convertible back to pure potential (freedom/money). 
• you are free to earn money, but this action results in certain set of behaviors that is constrained by the work culture.

When it comes to self-discipline - you are willingly constraining your behavior in a way that you find beneficial.
No constraint and no freedom are actually ultimate and you can always chose back to not discipline yourself.
This is why it is difficult and we admire people that can commit to it.