Artificial Intelligence & Society

[non_nothing]

4 minutes ago, non_nothing said:

Yes a machine can achieve a mind and consciousness. Machines are not AI. Use your words with caution.

Implying, biological-machines for your all narrow-minded needs.

Edited December 13, 2018 by non_nothing

[luckieluuke]

@non_nothing I guess I interpreted your conclusion that AI cannot have a mind included that machine cannot have a mind.
Still doesnt change a thing thou: the fact that you proclaim to know that and AI never can have a mind.

@ajasatya Yes but we have discovered new ways to structure the machine, and with quantum computers into the mix I stand with my point. The question is do you lack the understanding how far we´ve come since the turing machine. And no I dont lack the understading how computers work: theire a couple of gates orderred in a structure. Just as the brains neo cortex is a couple of neurons ordered in a structure.
What if we built a computer which had exactly the same kind of mechanical nerons ordered in exactly the same way?

Edited December 13, 2018 by luckieluuke

[non_nothing]

2 minutes ago, luckieluuke said:

@non_nothing I guess I interpreted your conclusion that AI cannot have a mind included that machine cannot have a mind.
Still doesnt change a thing thou: the fact that you proclaim to know that and AI never can have a mind.

@ajasatya Yes but we have discovered new ways to structure the machine, and with quantum computers into the mix I stand with my point. The question is do you lack the understanding how far we´ve come since the turing machine. And no I dont lack the understading how computers work: theire a couple of gates orderred in a structure. Just as the brain is a couple of neurons ordered in a structure.

We're talking very shallow here. What is a mind? What if AI achieves a mind, and I turn out to be wrong, who's mind are we exactly talking about? What's our measurement here? What is a mind? When we would say that he has a mind? After what specified task?

Under my definitions of a "HUMAN MIND", it cannot. It can mimic, but It cannot develop to a mind extends from consciousness.

[Tistepiste]

@non_nothing Never say "never" though.

Right now AI is already mimicing the way a brain functions (Neural Networks).
This is still very basic, and training on one specific task yields good results.

But technology advances very very quickly, so yeah.

 

Although I must agree that the chances of it developping its own consciousness are slim to none

Edited December 13, 2018 by Tistepiste

[luckieluuke]

@non_nothing In the same way, how do you know that another human have a mind? Use that as definition. Well in order to do that you need to know what mind and consciousness is going full loop back to what I said, you need to know what that is before you proclaim that it can never be that. And you don´t seem to know what that is....I don´t know what that is hence I don´t know if it´s possible. But I think it might be since from what i know all seems to be consciousness .

 

Edited December 13, 2018 by luckieluuke

[non_nothing]

2 minutes ago, Tistepiste said:

@non_nothing Never say "never" though.

Right now AI is already mimicing the way a brain functions (Neural Networks).
This is still very basic, and training on one specific task yields good results.

But technology advances very very quickly, so yeah.

 

Although I must agree that the chances of it developping its own consciousness are slim to none

Man, come ON. Don't choose stupid words. I do understand what you mean. Yes It can do tremendous tasks. But BRAIN FUNCTIONS? Can he synthesize proteins? If so where does it happen? In code?

 

Training ANN's are all about optimizing coefficients of gigantic high-order polynomial function with datasets.

[ajasatya]

@luckieluuke quantum computers are machines that can count in a different way, but they're still counting machine (that's where the word 'computer' comes from). and we're still struggling with the engineering part in order to make sense of the quantum mechanics. i'll rephrase what i just said: we are trying to manipulate quantum mechanics to create a better counting machine.

ok, let's make it easier. i didn't write that print instruction for no reason.

what would be the proof that an AI system 'attained' (i don't even know a good verb to use here) consciousness?

[non_nothing]

3 minutes ago, luckieluuke said:

@non_nothing In the same way, how do you know that another human have a mind? Use that as definition. Well in order to do that you need to know what mind and consciousness is going full loop back to what I said, you need to know what that is before you proclaim that it can never be that. And you don´t seem to know what that is....I don´t know what that is hence I don´t know if it´s possible. But I think it might be since from what i know all seems to be consciousness .

 

I like this question. Actually I was all aware of that question before I post my comment. This is out of this thread's scope.

That being said, you've said it yourself. Noone can define a "mind". Not only because the definition lacks,

but an AI cannot fully operate as human,

ONE FACT: is randomness is can't be defined mathematically. TRUE randomness does not exists.

This words are not for only @Luckie but to all who claim they are mathematicians and bla bla bla so much in this thread, but take this. Define a randomness and now we can talk about a step further about AI becoming human.

 

[luckieluuke]

@ajasatya
 

9 minutes ago, luckieluuke said:

@non_nothing In the same way, how do you know that another human have a mind? Use that as definition. Well in order to do that you need to know what mind and consciousness is going full loop back to what I said, you need to know what that is before you proclaim that it can never be that. And you don´t seem to know what that is....I don´t know what that is hence I don´t know if it´s possible. But I think it might be since from what i know all seems to be consciousness .

 

 

[non_nothing]

6 minutes ago, non_nothing said:

I like this question. Actually I was all aware of that question before I post my comment. This is out of this thread's scope.

That being said, you've said it yourself. Noone can define a "mind". Not only because the definition lacks,

but an AI cannot fully operate as human,

ONE FACT: is randomness is can't be defined mathematically. TRUE randomness does not exists.

This words are not for only @Luckie but to all who claim they are mathematicians and bla bla bla so much in this thread, but take this. Define a randomness and now we can talk about a step further about AI becoming human.

 

FURTHER:

http://people.ischool.berkeley.edu/~nick/aaronson-oracle/index.html

Quote

In a class I taught at Berkeley, I did an experiment where I wrote a simple little program that would let people type either “f” or “d” and would predict which key they were going to push next. It’s actually very easy to write a program that will make the right prediction about 70% of the time. Most people don’t really know how to type randomly. They’ll have too many alternations and so on. There will be all sorts of patterns, so you just have to build some sort of probabilistic model. Even a very crude one will do well. I couldn’t even beat my own program, knowing exactly how it worked. I challenged people to try this and the program was getting between 70% and 80% prediction rates. Then, we found one student that the program predicted exactly 50% of the time. We asked him what his secret was and he responded that he “just used his free will.”

 

Edited December 13, 2018 by non_nothing

[luckieluuke]

@non_nothing
Quantum indeterminacy: is the apparent necessary incompleteness in the description of a physical system, that has become one of the characteristics of the standard description of quantum physics.

We thought the world was predetermined like a clockwork but Quantum theory is turning that upside down....
Im not sure about complete randomness. But it´s a subject central to the question and also a very interesting one.

[ajasatya]

17 minutes ago, luckieluuke said:

how do you know that another human have a mind?

now this is legitimately an interesting question. there is no proof. it depends on your personal experience.

in my experience, when i deeply connect with someone else through eye contact deep listenning, it does feel like there's someone like myself in front of me.

i used to think like you before i was able to have such experiences.

[luckieluuke]

@ajasatya So if there is no proof then how can you be sure you can prove that a AI or machine can never have it?
If you say that it does feel like there is someone else like you in front of you. How are you certain that you are not projecting?
So if there is a machine that works exactly like a human you know for sure that you could tell the difference since the machine can never be conscious?
Let me ask you this: Do animal have consciousness? Is there a difference between a dolphin and a reptile? Can a network of mushroom myceilia and its surroundings have a consciousness of some sort? Im asking cause to me its like asking who I am, when I try to find the border between conscious and not conscious I end up not finding a distiction...that all is conscious.


You could always do a Voight-Kampff test ;-)

[luckieluuke]

If I am conscious and I am everything including the pen in my hand then surely also the pen is conscious, it makes a sound when I tap it and leaves a trail of "itself" when i scratch another surface with it.
Like I said before, all is equally conscious just in a different way.
Else we would have duality, conscious and non conscious and duality ultimately does't exist.

Edited December 13, 2018 by luckieluuke

[purerogue]

It is not about duality, it is about relative reality, your pen does not have senses to even understand what exists, or does not exist. 

AI has just pure logic, that can answer more questions thank humans logically, examine patterns, it has no reasons to do it , other then what it was programmed to do ,ofc it can go and search for many things, but it will still be only reason why it will do it will be because of code,  if you will put it to take care of humans one day it will have mathematically come to conclusion that humans are needed, after year it will will find out that it actually does  not need us and take us out, actually I do not see any reason why it would think that humans are needed , only if it was as its core code to take care of all living beings, which again ironically can be bypassed if it comes to conclusion that we are not actually living beings, or humans. 

Anyway, AI has only 1 sense, and it is logic. 

 

[TheAvatarState]

@AceTrainerGreen I'm sorry but your paradigm is backwards. If you're looking for what the future will look like with AI, don't be afraid. It'll basically move us into spiral dynamics stage green, because all the jobs an AI can't do are ones that deal with people. Not customer service obviously, but real, intimate jobs that require human empathy and connection. I'd recommend that you watch the interview I linked, it's pretty good. 

From your paradigm, a robot will eventually be able to do EVERYTHING a human can do. If that's the case, then are we robots? And are you comfortable with the idea of the human race becoming extinct because we're no longer needed? Is that what you really intuit, that we won't be necessary at all in the future?

[Hellspeed]

13 hours ago, AceTrainerGreen said:

This individual survived stage four cancer due to genomic sequencing. If it was not for the help of AI, he would be dead. Sequencing the human genome took a decade and billions of dollars whereas you can now do that in two days for a thousand dollars or less.

This is from the official prime minister of Japan's YouTube channel.

This AI is capable of predicting respiratory failure.

This is sounding very /r/iamverysmart. It's a good thing you've interacted with me. I tend to go extraordinarily very deep on topics. I too have an online journal where it has more than 1,000 documents of research. I'm a nerd as well. We can play.

I'm already sure you're familiar with Principia Mathematica written by Alfred North Whitehead and Bertrand Russel which gives the proof of the question; however, you're asking "Why?"

The philosophy of mathematics is interesting.

What is the question behind your question?

This is becoming out-of-hand. I am not a "minion" of Elon. You are making accusations. I am a person seeking for truth. Don't put words into my mouth. Additionally, your diplomatic skills need to be fine-tuned. I believe you won't persuade anyone via insulting.

It seems this thread has gone in the wrong direction. Again, I repeat, I'm not particularly concerned with the consciousness of artificial intelligence, albeit I'm glad to discuss it; however, I created this thread because I wanted to know how artificial intelligence is going to impact our lives. Perhaps, I should retitle this thread and just call it 'Artificial Intelligence and Society'.

Pathetic, compared to awakening, are just stitches, not real update at a conscious level. 

But they are useful for those who are not willing to awake, i give you that. 

[Outer]

I don't think super intelligence will become conscious unless its a biological super creature. Like having a biological brain the size of a planet or more.

[Tistepiste]

20 hours ago, non_nothing said:

Man, come ON. Don't choose stupid words. I do understand what you mean. Yes It can do tremendous tasks. But BRAIN FUNCTIONS? Can he synthesize proteins? If so where does it happen? In code?

 

Training ANN's are all about optimizing coefficients of gigantic high-order polynomial function with datasets.

@non_nothing

Haha... You understand me wrong. You're not really reading what I was saying.
I say it MIMICS how the brain functions. No that it synthesizes proteins.

I studied Artificial Intelligence. Just do some research on Neural Networks.

[non_nothing]

29 minutes ago, Tistepiste said:

@non_nothing

Haha... You understand me wrong. You're not really reading what I was saying.
I say it MIMICS how the brain functions. No that it synthesizes proteins.

I studied Artificial Intelligence. Just do some research on Neural Networks.

You too. I said clearly at the bottom. Happens

29 minutes ago, Tistepiste said:

Man, come ON. Don't choose stupid words. I do understand what you mean. Yes It can do tremendous tasks. But BRAIN FUNCTIONS? Can he synthesize proteins? If so where does it happen? In code?

 

Training ANN's are all about optimizing coefficients of gigantic high-order polynomial function with datasets.