"Insight knowledge is non-conceptual knowledge, right?"

[Freyah]

This is the title of a page on a Buddhist website I happened to look at.  I know one of these guys interacting has been an academic Buddhist monk for 15+ years... 

https://dhammawheel.com/viewtopic.php?t=2972

Is this what happens when you get bogged down within religious texts, religious academic interpretations, but not actually really looking or finding for yourself? You leave it up to the religious text to give you the answer to Ultimate Truth.. ..?

It seems that rather than go and actually experiencing it for yourself, you can end up debating definitions and Interpretations on an online forum...

Is this a way of getting deeply stuck...? In the academic study of a religion..? 

When you see Truth surely you will be able to have your own words by way of pointing to it, without needing confirmation of what a sutta said, or confirmation by a religious lineage. No doubt it will be clear without someone else telling you it is. 

What are others experiences of this in religious settings... ?Is Buddhism worse than other religions for this as there is a large body of work to lose oneself in academically?

@Preetom.....?

@Leo Gura....?

 

 

 

Edited December 10, 2018 by Freyah

[Preetom]

@Freyah

Actually all religions and philosophical systems have large books. Yes it's one of the most pernicious traps of taking the map for territory.

Understand one thing. Truth cannot be communicated. That's just the nature of this work. So you can't conflate 'truths' from other areas of life with this 'Truth'. You can, but that would be a trap.

All the religious instructions and intellectual discussions have only one purpose: to give you a relatively satisfactory ground from which you can begin the search. Now if you need some quantum mechanics theory to satisfy your intellectual needs, then go there. If it's the Buddhist texts, then go there. But remember the purpose. None of that can hand you the Truth. They can only convince you to begin your own search. If this is your attitude, then all spiritual texts or scientific research can help you in one way or another.

The moment you take it as ideology, it's game over before the game even starting 

I guess this is why the greatest masters always answered according to the level of questioner. As Truth is incommunicable, the masters provided the answers to help, not to hand over Truth. But unfortunately, their messages were inevitably turned in ideologies 

Edited December 11, 2018 by Preetom

[Amanaki]

For me as a Buddhist i study the suttas, But it is only the effort i put in that can lead me to the truth. No matter how many times i read the books, without actually cultivation (practice) i would be stuck in same place.

Study the sutta and meditating is the main but also keeping the moral and understanding 4 noble truths and using the 8 folded path in daily life.

But for each of us we will find different answer because we see the "path" in different ways. ( some will disagree with me here)

[Nahm]

@Preetom Beautiful. 

@Freyah  You’re limiting to appear as knowledge and asking if you’re conceptual, like one might ask a mirror “does this hat look ok?”.       Yes and no.    

[Forestluv]

@Preetom Well said ?

[Freyah]

Thank you @Preetom wonderful!

And @Amanaki

for your replies. 

@Preetom please can you tell me about your 'moment of truth'....Do you mind saying? What flipped things over? How long did you look for, until that moment?

 

 

[Freyah]

@Nahm not sure what you mean... but anyway, I'm happy with the answer I've received:)

[Preetom]

21 hours ago, Freyah said:

@Preetom please can you tell me about your 'moment of truth'....Do you mind saying? What flipped things over? How long did you look for, until that moment?

I'm actually in the process of intense self-inquiry. I've studied things intellectually, had several glimpses here and there. If I have to mention my 1st significant glimpse, it was during self-inquiry. I planned a 7 day, 12 hours a day, self-inquiry home retreat last year. I got WOKE big time on 3rd day and the rest of retreat collapsed lol. It's impossible to communicate that 'experience'. All the mind can remember is that ''it felt extraordinarily good!'', but that's just the body-mind's side effect reaction to Truth and actually got nothing to do with Truth.

I am from a theistic family where I was taught to worship hindu deities from childhood. In my teenage years, I grew out of it and started reading Bhagavad Gita (2 pages everyday for like 3 years). But I translated that text as some sort of elite superhuman 'moralism' due my limited understanding and completely missed the essence of that text which is non-duality and liberation.

Then around 5 years ago, I came across Eckhart Tolle's Power of Now and that was the beginning. Up to this point, I studied several books, teachings, teachers and techniques.

It all served it's purpose in the sense that, now I have absolutely no doubt that Truth exists and the method I chose(self-inquiry) is a valid way to crack this nut. Now it's only matter of time and events(If I'm permitted to say so ) before the deal is sealed once and for all. Wish me luck  

Edited December 11, 2018 by Preetom

[Forestluv]

@Preetom That is a super cool story ? and good luck 

[Preetom]

6 minutes ago, Serotoninluv said:

@Preetom That is a super cool story ? and good luck 

Thanks!

[SOUL]

5 hours ago, Freyah said:

When you see Truth surely you will be able to have your own words by way of pointing to it

 

5 hours ago, Preetom said:

Truth cannot be communicated.

 

4 hours ago, Amanaki said:

for each of us we will find different answer because we see the "path" in different ways

 

5 hours ago, Nahm said:

you’re conceptual, like one might ask a mirror................Yes and no.

it pleases....

in pieces....

appeases....

en peaces....

[Leo Gura]

Of course one can get stuck intellectualizing, but the Truth is also not as clear as most people imagine. The Truth is massive, vast, paradoxical, freaky, and so multi-dimensional so it can easily be glimpsed and misunderstood.

Hence the scriptures and teachings have value. A good teaching will give you a framework for understanding the Truth and points out common traps.

Very very few people access the Truth fully and clearly in one leap. It usually takes years of stumbling around and piecing things together.

The problem is that people turn the teachings into ideology without any direct experience or very limited direct experience.

[Nahm]

10 hours ago, Freyah said:

@Nahm not sure what you mean... but anyway, I'm happy with the answer I've received:)

?? ♥️ That is the better point I suppose.  That simple truth is foreign.

 

 

 

[Jack River]

An example of insight that is not in essence born of knowledge anyone? 

 

[Forestluv]

18 minutes ago, Jack River said:

An example of insight that is not in essence born of knowledge anyone? 

 

Insights into true nature before the mind-body was born. Before the mind-body was exposed to language, images and knowledge.

[Jack River]

2 minutes ago, Serotoninluv said:

Insights into true nature before the mind-body was born. Before the mind-body was exposed to language, images and knowledge.

Ah. 

Never heard anyone refer to that as insight 

[Jack River]

I always refered to insight as a prior to knowledge/experience-memory seeing/action. From a place of timelessness there can be insight that is whole, not fragmented by the mind-body(images-knower-knowledge). 

So to me insight is a holistic action that sees holisticly and is born the immeasurable.  

Edited December 11, 2018 by Jack River

[Forestluv]

2 minutes ago, Jack River said:

I always refered to insight as a prior to knowledge/experience-memory seeing. From a place of timelessness there can be insight that is whole, not fragmented by the mind-body(images-knowledge). 

That sounds good too. I just gave an example, not a definition.

[Jack River]

Just now, Serotoninluv said:

That sounds good too. I just gave an example, not a definition.

Thanks for responding dude 

[Jack River]

Can anyone else give an example (reduced by the word) of this insight? 

Like in regards to the insights unlimited energy bringing about clarity in the field of reality. 

Like a moment of total clarity where something that was always in pieces came together as a whole. 

Edited December 11, 2018 by Jack River