Ego backlash vid

[Angelo John Gage]

BKind of makes you wonder what is the point of doing all this actualizing when you can never escape suffering not rid yourself of the ego?

Well, I think its the fact accepting this is part of the evolutionary process of "you" being necessary. If everything always worked and was perfect, nothing would improve and in fact, there would be no way to know it was perfect. Suffering is necessary for all evolution of life, in all its forms, mental and physical.

So when you have ego backlash, think of it like a rainy day that must happen to water the flowers for new growth.

When I first started my whole journey of trying to enlighten myself, I believed it was about ridding the ego, but it is not; its just knowing what it is and what you really are. I don't believe there is such a thing of being enlightened; this concept is bullshit if you ask me. You can experience the Absolute and all that nice stuff, but it is an experience to learn what reality is and you relation to it.

I would not trust these 'gurus' out there who run around with monotone voices who put on this show of utter peace and tranquility. I came to learn even one of my favorites, Alan Watts, died an alcoholic, had divorced several times and was a mess at the end. But Alan was real and never claimed to be anything and also warned about such "gurus". @Leo Gura has done great work and remains humble, but I've seen too many of these people out there with their seminars and cult-like settings selling bullshit which cannot be achieved. They always have these Q and A's where they answer in the same exact way: They stop, shut their eyes (as if they are channeling the universe) then answer as if that is the truth. 

So I think ego backlash can be exacerbated if you expect some kind of total peace from being 'actualized' or whatever other term to describe a state which can never be permanent. What is permanent, if your lucky, is remembering what you experienced as a reminder of what is true...but there is no escaping suffering nor is there any end to this process.

 

 

Edited December 10, 2018 by Angelo John Gage

[Dan94]

And when you do stumble upon massive resistance, cultivate that self-love:

Have a great monday y'all.

 

[purerogue]

There is escape of it, you come in peace with everything and after that you kill your thoughts, so you stop questioning if it is right thing to do,or not and give up on searching further. 

It is not that suffering is necessary, you do not suffer every time you take in new information , do you? Suffering comes from changes in ego that it does not like, or information that threatens ego, you can as well take same information and not suffer, it is when we get emotionally attached when we suffer.

Is there ego death , I do not know , but I know how I can find that out, it is more of a matter if you want to step that boundary to see for yourself, there are people who say that there is , I will take that as yes, but what exactly changing one existence to another changes for me? 

 

 

 

 

 

[Angelo John Gage]

Suffering is necessary process for development. Is it fundamental to the universe in as a physical law? No. It surely is because of our reflective nature; but suffering happens even to animals and other forms of life who lack our level of sentience. We can look at suffering as a negative force, working in opposition of a positive force, both exist and are two sides of the same coin.

[aurum]

4 hours ago, Angelo John Gage said:

but there is no escaping suffering nor is there any end to this process.

If you actually realized that, you would have escaped from suffering.

[Leo Gura]

There is escape from suffering. But the irony is that to escape requires lots more suffering so most egos don't want to do it.

The ego will settle for pleasure if it can. And these days society makes that very easy.

[Joseph Maynor]

What you’re talking about is the Spiritual Ego.  Most Spiritual Egos don’t see that they’re Spiritual Egos.  True Enlightenment is not about clinging to being Enlightened.  That’s the irony.  The people who talk about Enlightenment, usually, are people that are trapped in the theory of Enlightenment.  These people are ideologues regarding Enlightenment.  They look a certain way, they talk a certain way.  It’s similar to punk rock.  You got all these people who are trying to be individuals, yet they end up looking the same, talking the same, listening to the same music.  Ideology is sneaky like that.  I watch debates on the Forum that are pages long where people are lost in the minutia of non-dual theory basically.  When I see this, what it looks like from my perspective is these people are lost  in fantasy-land instead of actually working to improve their lives and the world.  And basically they’re Spiritual Egos.  The Ego is now wearing the mohawk, using the ‘right buzzwords’, looking a certain way, adhering to certain norms about what ‘true Enlightenment’ is.  I think you’re on the right track in your intuition.  True Enlightenment is when you can let go of clinging to truth.

Edited December 10, 2018 by Joseph Maynor

[Forestluv]

3 minutes ago, Leo Gura said:

There is escape from suffering. But the irony is that to escape requires lots more suffering so most egos don't want to do it.

The ego will settle for pleasure if it can. And these days society makes that very easy.

Along these lines, it seems a lot of seekers are trying to follow a blissful, peaceful path to transcendence - and there are plenty of teachers that teach to this. Yet, the ego dissolution process for my mind-body had as much terror and insanity as it did peace, joy and love. Looking back, I can't imagine how those distinctions can collapse without the direct experience of terror/insanity collapsing with peace/joy/love. 

[zambize]

8 minutes ago, Serotoninluv said:

Along these lines, it seems a lot of seekers are trying to follow a blissful, peaceful path to transcendence - and there are plenty of teachers that teach to this. Yet, the ego dissolution process for my mind-body had as much terror and insanity as it did peace, joy and love. Looking back, I can't imagine how those distinctions can collapse without the direct experience of terror/insanity collapsing with peace/joy/love. 

Seems to me like there is some debate on this, I feel like I distinctly remember Moojiji saying something along the lines of, "why be happy in a year, if you can be happy now".  I think overall this journey should be fun, even if there is "terror and insanity".  Most experiences I've had with ego dissolution feel mostly like jumping off a cliff into water, you kind of know you'll be fine and enjoy the adrenaline rush, but there is still a large degree of terror.  That being said, I think for some people this terror can be excitement too, or at least a mix.  I kind of have an issue with both sides, those that push the fact that this should be some grueling journey and don't mention that it can overall be fun and exciting, and those that push it being only fun and loving.  I tend to just believe that everyone has to deal with what's on their plate, if you feel fear, you gotta embrace it, look into it, what is it trying to tell you, but if for some reason you don't, I don't think you have to force yourself into bad situations believing it's the only way to make progress

[daniel695]

i heard mooji say suffering is an attitude. meaning you can be in great pain but not necessarily suffer. i have chronic headache and brain which which means i'm in pain but doesn't necessarily mean i'm suffering unless my attitude or perception of the pain is misinterpreted. as leo said you can escape suffering or never even suffer in the first place but i don't know you can escape pain.  

[Forestluv]

@zambize I like the imagery you used and I think it is true. I'm getting at something a bit different.

For example, during my Aya ceremony as I lost control my mind-body went into anxiety and then I realized I couldn't turn back and make it stop. Then panic arose. Then full-on terror. There was no escape or avoiding it. I was paralyzed and couldn't physically move. There were no concepts of time. I struggled in anguish and terror for eternity. And then, there was no struggle. The terror just was. The terror was no different than a speck of dust or the wing of a butterfly. There was absolute peace. Terror = Peace. I can't imagine how a mind-body can transcend terror/peace without a direct experience like that. We could get all philosophical and conceptualize about the essence of terror and peace. Yet, that experience went sooo much deeper than concepts. 

[zambize]

Just now, Serotoninluv said:

@zambize I like the imagery you used and I think it is true. I'm getting at something a bit different.

For example, during my Aya ceremony as I lost control my mind-body went into anxiety and then I realized I couldn't turn back and make it stop. Then panic arose. Then full-on terror. There was no escape or avoiding it. I was paralyzed - I wanted to kill myself as that would be the only way to make it stop. Yet, I couldn't physically move, which made it more horrific. There were no concepts of time. I struggled in anguish and terror for eternity. And then, there was no struggle. The terror just was. The terror was no different than a speck of dust or the wing of a butterfly. There was absolute peace. Terror = Peace. I can't imagine how a mind-body can transcend terror/peace without a direct experience like that. We could get all philosophical and conceptualize about the essence of terror and peace. Yet, that experience went sooo much deeper than concepts. 

Yeah I know, part of my comment didn't relate to what you said and was kind of fleshing out my story, I just think you're pretty smart and like to comment on your stuff to see what you think of what I have to say haha, so if there is ever any disconnect, it's just that I like to hear what you say.  I'm so excited to do a ceremony myself, hopefully I'm brave enough to not struggle and let the terror be

[Forestluv]

11 minutes ago, zambize said:

Yeah I know, part of my comment didn't relate to what you said and was kind of fleshing out my story, I just think you're pretty smart and like to comment on your stuff to see what you think of what I have to say haha, so if there is ever any disconnect, it's just that I like to hear what you say.  I'm so excited to do a ceremony myself, hopefully I'm brave enough to not struggle and let the terror be

That's cool. You seem to have a curious mind and I appreciate your thoughts.

Are you planning on doing an Aya ceremony? If so, I don't mean to scare you with the terror stuff. My first ceremony was absolute bliss. I was so connected to everyone in the temple. When it came time for surrender, the choice was my old egoic mindset or absolute beauty, love and harmony. I was like "Huh? This is it? The big surrender? Heck yea, I'll surrender!!! Helloooooo bliss!!". At one point, I walked outside and looked over the moonlit Peruvian mountains as ethereal music flowed around the temple. The beauty, love and joy was indescribable. I was in a magical land. I thought "How have I missed this beauty my whole life".

Part of my difficulty the second ceremony was that I wanted to steer it back to blissville. It doesn't work that way. Mother Aya does her thing. 

Before the second ceremony, I was feeling a bit cocky. I made it through my first ceremony without a scratch and was actually giving first-timers advice. Then I was humbled big time.

[zambize]

Just now, Serotoninluv said:

That's cool. You seem to have a curious mind and I appreciate your thoughts.

Are you planning on doing an Aya ceremony? If so, I don't mean to scare you with the terror stuff. My first ceremony was absolute bliss. I was so connected to everyone in the temple. When it came time for surrender, the choice was my old egoic mindset or absolute beauty, love and harmony. I was like "Huh? This is it? The big surrender? Heck yea, I'll surrender!!! Helloooooo bliss!!". At one point, I walked outside and looked over the moonlit Peruvian mountains as ethereal music flowed around the temple. The beauty, love and joy was indescribable. I was in a magical land. I thought "How have I missed this beauty my whole life".

Part of my difficulty the second ceremony was that I wanted to steer it back to blissville. It doesn't work that way. Mother Aya does her thing. Then the fight was on and Mother Aya kicked my ass. . . 

I don't have a date, but I strongly intend to at some point, maybe that's not enough.

Is this on a completely different ballpark than something like an eighth of shrooms, right I'm kind of on a schedule of taking shrooms every few weeks and integrating.  I would totally make Aya a goal that I accomplish within a year if you felt there was significant consciousness to be expanded from Aya compared to your typical shrooms/LCD.  I'm not scared, but I have it pretty burnt in my memory not to fight it now, which I think is a good thing for me.  Man you're really making me excited, but I don't want to have expectations either

[Forestluv]

15 minutes ago, zambize said:

I don't have a date, but I strongly intend to at some point, maybe that's not enough.

Is this on a completely different ballpark than something like an eighth of shrooms, right I'm kind of on a schedule of taking shrooms every few weeks and integrating.  I would totally make Aya a goal that I accomplish within a year if you felt there was significant consciousness to be expanded from Aya compared to your typical shrooms/LCD.  I'm not scared, but I have it pretty burnt in my memory not to fight it now, which I think is a good thing for me.  Man you're really making me excited, but I don't want to have expectations either

I see them all as different teachers and I would not put Aya higher than shrooms, San Pedro or LSD. I would put 5-meo a half notch higher.

Aya was really demanding - especially physically. It took my body two full days to recover from the first ceremony. Ugh. . . IME, Aya has it's own flavor yet it's still in the same ballpark of psychedelics. Part of the mysticism was traveling to the mountains of Peru, the people in the community, the temple, the amazing music and landscapes. I would have gotten just as much doing mushrooms/LSD during the retreat as Aya. If I returned, it would be more for the atmosphere than the Aya. Also, it can be a big investment  of time / money and one cannot predict what the ceremony will be like. A woman next to me became a lizard during the ceremony and was really disappointed afterwards. Another woman threw twice and fell asleep. She took a second serving and fell back asleep. Other people had deep realizations. Psychedelics can go into bizarre nutty places that don't really have anything to do with, well anything. 

Personally, I wouldn't take a trip just for an Aya retreat. I was already going to Peru to study Spanish and I added in the Aya retreat.

[Jack River]

I didn’t watch this video, but ego backlash is common among dudes and dudets. 

To me it’s simple..a reaction of “cultivating death” via machinery(time-thought). The more this time is nourished as a means to end time the more there is repression/control/subtle conflict taking place.

After a while that is revealed we can no longer depend on the content of the past knowledge/experience-memory (where we feel certain) to meet the impermanence of each living moment(uncertainty). 

Ego backlash is a result of the ego subtly depending on its content (the old-memory/knowledge/experience) to solve new problems that arise from moment to moment. We try and meet the infinite with the finite. We try and meet the dynamic nature of life with a fixed predisposition(the conditioned past). 

Edited December 11, 2018 by Jack River

[Jack River]

The ego, the movement of desire pursuing pleasure, the cultivation of psychological evolution or psychological progression through gradual process (practices/systems/formulas-tradition-cultural religious paths) is all one unit in movement of escape-TIME pushing freedom/liberation into “the future”. To procrastinate dying now. This procrastination of death implies freedom is then actually being escaped/resisted right now. 

After all that is the function of thought, to solve problems in time. Thought is time. 

In this is implied conflict/suffering/resistance/attachment, and further identification. Conflict/Suffering, being a continuous progressive movement of psychological becoming only sustains duality/conflict/suffering. We think we can cultivate a path to freedom. But the ego/self that cultivates through the means of a path (knowledge/experience-memory) implicitly puts freedom further away in the future. 

The ego moves within this mechanistic pattern of time and that ego assumes freedom lies at the end of a long road of progress through conflict/suffering.. And that is also food for self. 

Just as a self resists suffering which strengthens that suffering, so does the self resist freedom. The selfs job/role is to sustain its own continuity, which manifests itself as attachment/resistance/identification...

Resistance to what-is fuels the machinery of ego. Resistance/ego is time. 

 

Edited December 11, 2018 by Jack River

[Hellspeed]

3 hours ago, Leo Gura said:

There is escape from suffering. But the irony is that to escape requires lots more suffering so most egos don't want to do it.

The ego will settle for pleasure if it can. And these days society makes that very easy.

?

[zambize]

2 hours ago, Serotoninluv said:

I see them all as different teachers and I would not put Aya higher than shrooms, San Pedro or LSD. I would put 5-meo a half notch higher.

Aya was really demanding - especially physically. It took my body two full days to recover from the first ceremony. Ugh. . . IME, Aya has it's own flavor yet it's still in the same ballpark of psychedelics. Part of the mysticism was traveling to the mountains of Peru, the people in the community, the temple, the amazing music and landscapes. I would have gotten just as much doing mushrooms/LSD during the retreat as Aya. If I returned, it would be more for the atmosphere than the Aya. Also, it can be a big investment  of time / money and one cannot predict what the ceremony will be like. A woman next to me became a lizard during the ceremony and was really disappointed afterwards. Another woman threw twice and fell asleep. She took a second serving and fell back asleep. Other people had deep realizations. Psychedelics can go into bizarre nutty places that don't really have anything to do with, well anything. 

Personally, I wouldn't take a trip just for an Aya retreat. I was already going to Peru to study Spanish and I added in the Aya retreat.

I don't think i'd be disappointed if I turned into a lizard haha, but thanks for the advice/knowledge, i'll keep it in mind in the future