If we are not our bodies, what is our bodies then?

[korbes]

If I am not the person I believe I am, and I am consciousness instead.

Then why is the consciousness planted in this body? Why can I only be aware out of my vision, and not from my friends eyes/vision?

Why can't I be everyone, if I am everything, if I am it? 

Like, why am I stuck with this person? 

Does consciousness just manifest in all objects?

And if everybody is consciousness itself, if they are everything, why are we still different personas?

 

 

[Sahil Pandit]

@korbes You're not "in it". 

You are aware "of it"

3 minutes ago, korbes said:

 

Then why is the consciousness planted in this body? Why can I only be aware out of my vision, and not from my friends eyes/vision?

Why can't I be everyone, if I am everything, if I am it? 

You already ARE everything, but from your perspective, it's just belief with little direct experience of seeing the Ox. 

A radical re-contextualization needs to happen.

[korbes]

Just now, Sahil Pandit said:

@korbes You're not "in it". 

You are aware "of it"

You already ARE everything, but from your perspective, it's just belief with little direct experience of seeing the Ox. 

A radical re-contextualization needs to happen.

So, I am awareness, and awareness is me. 

But why can't that awareness expand out of my body?

Why can't I be aware of what you are doing right now, when I am you, and you are me?

 

So me and you are actually the same?

 

[ground]

6 minutes ago, korbes said:

If I am not the person I believe I am, and I am consciousness instead.

No, you're not consciousness. you are not.

 

6 minutes ago, korbes said:

Then why is the consciousness planted in this body?

This body does exist the same way as consciousness does exists: no inherent existence.

6 minutes ago, korbes said:

Why can't I be everyone, if I am everything, if I am it? 

Again, you are not (ultimately). Consciousness is not (ultimately).  This body is not (ultimately).

But for the time being, don't confuse the relative and the ultimate.

[korbes]

2 minutes ago, ground said:

No, you're not consciousness. you are not.

What am I then?

Not my biological, physical body I guess? And not my persona / ego ofc.

But the living, aware essence?

Edited December 5, 2018 by korbes

[ground]

Just now, korbes said:

What am I then?

Ultimately you are not, so ultimately your question does not apply. Relatively, you are korbes and korbes may be defined e.g. according to social standards, his own standards, what his family and/or friends consider korbes to be ... as you like.

[Sahil Pandit]

5 minutes ago, korbes said:

So, I am awareness, and awareness is me. 

But why can't that awareness expand out of my body?

Why can't I be aware of what you are doing right now, when I am you, and you are me?

 

So me and you are actually the same?

 

Awareness isn't a thing.

And it's not personal. 

It's completely formless, and the only way to "know" it is to "be" it.

The inquiring mind will also run its course and dissolve into awareness soon after you've reached your peak frustration with the inquiry. 

[Forestluv]

@korbes It sounds like you are at the "I AM" stage. Also known as the "observer" stage. There is awareness of presence, yet still an observer that perceives "I AM presence", that pen is presence, that tree is presence etc. There is still the perception of separation.

The questions you are asking are arising from the "I", "me", "my" perspective. Your questions are assuming there is separation and reinforcing the sense of separation. If your questions arise from a sense of openness, curiosity and exploration - there is a great chance of having insights and going deeper. If your questions arise from a skeptical ego that already knows the answer, wants to analyze and debate - there is little chance of having insights. If you feel a sense of genuineness and interest, I can share a couple exercises that may be helpful to embody and move through this stage.

[Nahm]

@korbes Do you have a solid understanding of how the world and everything in it appears dualisticly?

[korbes]

1 hour ago, Serotoninluv said:

@korbes It sounds like you are at the "I AM" stage. Also known as the "observer" stage. There is awareness of presence, yet still an observer that perceives "I AM presence", that pen is presence, that tree is presence etc. There is still the perception of separation.

The questions you are asking are arising from the "I", "me", "my" perspective. Your questions are assuming there is separation and reinforcing the sense of separation. If your questions arise from a sense of openness, curiosity and exploration - there is a great chance of having insights and going deeper. If your questions arise from a skeptical ego that already knows the answer, wants to analyze and debate - there is little chance of having insights. If you feel a sense of genuineness and interest, I can share a couple exercises that may be helpful to embody and move through this stage.

Nice explanation!

Yes, would love to hear about those exercises!

[Forestluv]

5 minutes ago, korbes said:

Nice explanation!

Yes, would love to hear about those exercises!

I had similar snags to what your questions suggest. Below is a long description of a few things that helped me get through the perception of separation block. It took me about a year, using various techniques. I describe below the one's that seem so helpful. This is not any type of Absolute Truth or Enlightenment guide. It is only methods I used to re-orient my minds perspective. It's like training wheels. Once you learn to ride the bike, get rid of the training wheels. This is just one approach. If it works for you great. If not, great - ditch it.

1. One of my biggest resistances to seeing One Everything was this sense that I had to choose either / or. I had to choose that I was either an individual person I felt like or a person-less type of whatever that is One with everything which I did NOT feel like. Since I felt like I had to choose between the two, my mind kept coming back to thoughts like "but wait a minute, how can I not exist?". Thoughts similar to the ones you listed above. Here, I explain a different approach in which BOTH are true. You are that individual person AND a person-less existence within One Everything. Your mind has undergone millions of years of evolution and a lifetime of nonstop conditioning to train your mind to only be aware of the perspective that you are a separate being from your surroundings. We are not rejecting this perspective, we are just going to relax the mind so that another perspective arises. 

The image below shows two simultaneous perspectives. There is a young woman AND an old woman. Yet, the mind can only be aware of one perspective at a time. Your mind is locked into one perspective. Let's say the human mind has evolved to easily see the image of the young woman. And from early childhood every child is conditioned to see the young woman. Thousands of times each day. One's entire view of life is based on the young woman perspective. 99.99999% of people don't even know the old woman perspective exists. Very few people can see the old woman and when they tell others about it, other people resist. They shall say "It's so obvious there is a young woman. Are you telling me the young woman is actually an old woman? You are crazy!!" . . . Asking questions and debating from the perspective of the young woman will not help you see the old woman. It's better to just relax the mind, observe and allow it to arise. 

Now, we can't make a person see the old woman. We can just *point* to features and hope the person awakens to the old woman. What type of person will be able to see the young woman?

Person A: The closed-minded logical debater. We tell him, "look at this line - this line marks the nose of the old woman". The person responds "Hogwash!! That line marks the cheek of the young woman. Science has proven this. Prove to me that line marks the nose of the old woman. You are trying to tell me that line is not part of the young woman when it obviously is!!". . . Well, we won't get very far with this person. . . 

Person B: The curious open-minded explorer. We tell her, "look at this line - this line marks the nose of the old woman". The person responds "I still only see the young woman, can you give me another pointer?". OK, this thick line looks like a necklace on the young woman, yet it is also the mouth of the old woman. Our student responds "I still only see the young woman. This is really frustrating. What else can I do". We could advise that she just relax her mind and forget about the young woman for a while. So, she relaxes her mind. As thoughts about the young woman arise, she let's them go. This is really hard to do because the mind is conditioned to only see the young woman. As our student continually lets go of young woman thoughts, the mind quiets and then one day "OMFG, there is the old woman!!!!". . . . Yet, it is only a glimpse. The mind snaps back to seeing the young woman. But now, this is no longer conceptualization - she has seen that old woman and knows it exists via her own direct experience. Yet, she needs to keep relaxing her mind to allow the the young woman to arise. With practice, it becomes more common and easier to see the old woman. When we return to look at the young woman, it's just not the same anymore - now that we can also see the old woman.

2. Similarly, the human mind has evolved and is socially conditioned to only see one perspective - that I exist as a separate entity. To "see" the other perspective of One Awareness, we need to let go of our attachment and conditioning to see the individual self (the young woman in the above analogy). The trick is, to be open to "pointers", yet don't get caught up on the pointers. Don't analyze the pointers. In the above example, saying "that line is NOT the old woman!!!" doesn't help. Of course that line isn't the old woman, it is within the old woman. If we just pointed to the old woman, you would have little chance to awaken to it. As well, saying a mantra like "I can see the old woman, I can see the old woman". Doesn't help much either. I think it's best to take in the pointers, relax and let it appear.

3. There are lots of pointers toward One Awareness, similar to the one above. Here is another. Sit in your room and look around. There is awareness you are present. Let go of the past and future and all ideas. Just sit there and be amazed that you have awareness that you exist. It's amazing!! That is the one thing that has never changed in your life - that sense of "I AM". Your body has changed, your thoughts have changed, your life has changed, the world has changed, your likes and dislikes have changed. Yet that sense of "I exist" is unchanging. It doesn't matter if you are hungry, cold, thinking, watching a movie, angry, have a headache, broke your arm - none of that matters. That sense of "I AM" is always present, whatever is happening. This sense of "I AM" is more real to you than anything else. It is the most intimate part of your being. You know this is true more than anything else in your life. I AM present right now. All those thoughts in your head are irrelevant. Regardless of anything you think, the "I AM" is still present. So, just let all the thinking go or just let the brain think and drop below into the sense of "I AM" presence that is more real than those passing thoughts and feelings. Get to know this "I AM" sense of awareness.

4. Once you can rest in this sense of "I AM" presence, look around the room. Let go of your mind's conditioned perception of differences - focus on sameness. What does EVERY thing in the room have in common with your sense of "I AM" present in this moment? Every thing in your room is also present in this moment. Every thing in your room has presence right now. Focus on the sameness. Every thing is presence. Every thing is the same presence, in that Every thing exists in your room. There is a "sameness" of presence. If your mind starts thinking "well, that object is different than that object. How can it be all the same?". Remember, we are NOT saying there are no differences. We are not saying the young woman image doesn't exist. Yes, there are differences, that's another perspective - just let that go and relax. . . So, every thing in your room is present. The all have a sameness in that they are all present. Now, look at how all these presences are interconnected. The presence of items that contact tables, the presence of molecules in the air you breath, the presence of body contacting a couch. It's all interconnected presence. Now is the big jump. . .  see it as One Everything in the room. All the things present are interconnected into One Everything that is present. Here, there is no separation. Show yourself something in your room that is not within Everything. You can't do it. Even the thoughts passing through your head are within Everything. How about memories? Those too are within the One Everything in the room. Try to think of something or do something that is not within this Everything. Think of an elephant. Do cartwheels across the room. Laugh. Cry. Whatever happens in your mind or body is withing Everything. And all objects in the room are within Everything.

5. Get glimpses of that One Everything. Your mind will likely snap right back into seeing individual objects and get attached to differences. That is OK. That is just the other perspective (the young woman). Seeing separation is not right or wrong. Yet, if you can get a good look at that One Everything, that is a direct look at a hair on the Ox's tail. 

6. Does this mean we strive to always perceive this One Everything? Does this mean there are no objects and no differences in life? No. It is just a different perspective and it is very practical in day to day life. After all, we drive a car, drink water have conversations with other people. It will be very difficult to have this One Everything perspective in public and when you are doing stuff. That is why it is so important to set aside quiet time practice to return to this One Everything state of being. Meditation, yoga, a walk in nature, sitting by a river and observing. . . 

[SOUL]

Stardust that is aware of being.

[Leo Gura]

5 hours ago, korbes said:

If I am not the person I believe I am, and I am consciousness instead.

Then why is the consciousness planted in this body?

It isn't. Consciousness is everywhere. But for the sense of you to exist, you've tricked yourself into thinking it is planted in that body. Without an ego consciousness would not feel planted in that body.

Look around the room. The entire room is made of consciousness. Consciousness is not located inside your body or head.

Quote

Why can I only be aware out of my vision, and not from my friends eyes/vision?

There is no you who is aware, and vision is not yours. That's the illusion ego creates.

Quote

Why can't I be everyone, if I am everything, if I am it? 

 You ARE everyone and everything. But you believe you are not, so it feels to you like you are separate.

What you think affects your reality. By thinking your exist, you come into existence. Stop thinking you exist and you will cease to exist.

Quote

Like, why am I stuck with this person? 

Because you believe you're alive. Stop thinking you exist and you will disappear. The body will continue as though it was never yours. You will cease to be "stuck to it" because you will cease to be at all!

Quote

Does consciousness just manifest in all objects?

No, all objects arise within one unified field of consciousness.

Quote

And if everybody is consciousness itself, if they are everything, why are we still different personas?

Imagine a hard drive with many virtual partitions. It is always one hard drive but the virtual partitions help to create temporary sub-domains within the drive, which can be useful. The key is to always remember that the partitions are not real but imaginary.

Consciousness subdivides itself through imagination, because in truth there is only unity. Division can only happen through imagination. Kind of like how a hard drive cannot physically cut itself into separate parts, but it can partition itself virtually.

[Flammable]

Bump!

[Hellspeed]

Every human biological body is the expression of the entire existance, in and out, light and dark, the whole universe and nothing. 

Us humans, we don't have a body, we are the body wich is interlinked. Cannot be grasped in notions nor explanations, is beyond that. 

Edited December 6, 2018 by Hellspeed

[WelcometoReality]

On 2018-12-05 at 6:53 PM, korbes said:

If I am not the person I believe I am, and I am consciousness instead.

Then why is the consciousness planted in this body? Why can I only be aware out of my vision, and not from my friends eyes/vision?

Why can't I be everyone, if I am everything, if I am it? 

Like, why am I stuck with this person? 

Does consciousness just manifest in all objects?

And if everybody is consciousness itself, if they are everything, why are we still different personas?

 

 

The body is there, the person though is just a figment of your imagination. It's identification to thought and the body. When all identification to body and thought disappears there is no longer any relative identification so the experience is that you are nothing and everything at the same time. But not you as in what you think you means.

[korbes]

On 5/12/2018 at 10:57 PM, Serotoninluv said:

I had similar snags to what your questions suggest. Below is a long description of a few things that helped me get through the perception of separation block. It took me about a year, using various techniques. I describe below the one's that seem so helpful. This is not any type of Absolute Truth or Enlightenment guide. It is only methods I used to re-orient my minds perspective. It's like training wheels. Once you learn to ride the bike, get rid of the training wheels. This is just one approach. If it works for you great. If not, great - ditch it.

1. One of my biggest resistances to seeing One Everything was this sense that I had to choose either / or. I had to choose that I was either an individual person I felt like or a person-less type of whatever that is One with everything which I did NOT feel like. Since I felt like I had to choose between the two, my mind kept coming back to thoughts like "but wait a minute, how can I not exist?". Thoughts similar to the ones you listed above. Here, I explain a different approach in which BOTH are true. You are that individual person AND a person-less existence within One Everything. Your mind has undergone millions of years of evolution and a lifetime of nonstop conditioning to train your mind to only be aware of the perspective that you are a separate being from your surroundings. We are not rejecting this perspective, we are just going to relax the mind so that another perspective arises. 

The image below shows two simultaneous perspectives. There is a young woman AND an old woman. Yet, the mind can only be aware of one perspective at a time. Your mind is locked into one perspective. Let's say the human mind has evolved to easily see the image of the young woman. And from early childhood every child is conditioned to see the young woman. Thousands of times each day. One's entire view of life is based on the young woman perspective. 99.99999% of people don't even know the old woman perspective exists. Very few people can see the old woman and when they tell others about it, other people resist. They shall say "It's so obvious there is a young woman. Are you telling me the young woman is actually an old woman? You are crazy!!" . . . Asking questions and debating from the perspective of the young woman will not help you see the old woman. It's better to just relax the mind, observe and allow it to arise. 

Now, we can't make a person see the old woman. We can just *point* to features and hope the person awakens to the old woman. What type of person will be able to see the young woman?

Person A: The closed-minded logical debater. We tell him, "look at this line - this line marks the nose of the old woman". The person responds "Hogwash!! That line marks the cheek of the young woman. Science has proven this. Prove to me that line marks the nose of the old woman. You are trying to tell me that line is not part of the young woman when it obviously is!!". . . Well, we won't get very far with this person. . . 

Person B: The curious open-minded explorer. We tell her, "look at this line - this line marks the nose of the old woman". The person responds "I still only see the young woman, can you give me another pointer?". OK, this thick line looks like a necklace on the young woman, yet it is also the mouth of the old woman. Our student responds "I still only see the young woman. This is really frustrating. What else can I do". We could advise that she just relax her mind and forget about the young woman for a while. So, she relaxes her mind. As thoughts about the young woman arise, she let's them go. This is really hard to do because the mind is conditioned to only see the young woman. As our student continually lets go of young woman thoughts, the mind quiets and then one day "OMFG, there is the old woman!!!!". . . . Yet, it is only a glimpse. The mind snaps back to seeing the young woman. But now, this is no longer conceptualization - she has seen that old woman and knows it exists via her own direct experience. Yet, she needs to keep relaxing her mind to allow the the young woman to arise. With practice, it becomes more common and easier to see the old woman. When we return to look at the young woman, it's just not the same anymore - now that we can also see the old woman.

2. Similarly, the human mind has evolved and is socially conditioned to only see one perspective - that I exist as a separate entity. To "see" the other perspective of One Awareness, we need to let go of our attachment and conditioning to see the individual self (the young woman in the above analogy). The trick is, to be open to "pointers", yet don't get caught up on the pointers. Don't analyze the pointers. In the above example, saying "that line is NOT the old woman!!!" doesn't help. Of course that line isn't the old woman, it is within the old woman. If we just pointed to the old woman, you would have little chance to awaken to it. As well, saying a mantra like "I can see the old woman, I can see the old woman". Doesn't help much either. I think it's best to take in the pointers, relax and let it appear.

3. There are lots of pointers toward One Awareness, similar to the one above. Here is another. Sit in your room and look around. There is awareness you are present. Let go of the past and future and all ideas. Just sit there and be amazed that you have awareness that you exist. It's amazing!! That is the one thing that has never changed in your life - that sense of "I AM". Your body has changed, your thoughts have changed, your life has changed, the world has changed, your likes and dislikes have changed. Yet that sense of "I exist" is unchanging. It doesn't matter if you are hungry, cold, thinking, watching a movie, angry, have a headache, broke your arm - none of that matters. That sense of "I AM" is always present, whatever is happening. This sense of "I AM" is more real to you than anything else. It is the most intimate part of your being. You know this is true more than anything else in your life. I AM present right now. All those thoughts in your head are irrelevant. Regardless of anything you think, the "I AM" is still present. So, just let all the thinking go or just let the brain think and drop below into the sense of "I AM" presence that is more real than those passing thoughts and feelings. Get to know this "I AM" sense of awareness.

4. Once you can rest in this sense of "I AM" presence, look around the room. Let go of your mind's conditioned perception of differences - focus on sameness. What does EVERY thing in the room have in common with your sense of "I AM" present in this moment? Every thing in your room is also present in this moment. Every thing in your room has presence right now. Focus on the sameness. Every thing is presence. Every thing is the same presence, in that Every thing exists in your room. There is a "sameness" of presence. If your mind starts thinking "well, that object is different than that object. How can it be all the same?". Remember, we are NOT saying there are no differences. We are not saying the young woman image doesn't exist. Yes, there are differences, that's another perspective - just let that go and relax. . . So, every thing in your room is present. The all have a sameness in that they are all present. Now, look at how all these presences are interconnected. The presence of items that contact tables, the presence of molecules in the air you breath, the presence of body contacting a couch. It's all interconnected presence. Now is the big jump. . .  see it as One Everything in the room. All the things present are interconnected into One Everything that is present. Here, there is no separation. Show yourself something in your room that is not within Everything. You can't do it. Even the thoughts passing through your head are within Everything. How about memories? Those too are within the One Everything in the room. Try to think of something or do something that is not within this Everything. Think of an elephant. Do cartwheels across the room. Laugh. Cry. Whatever happens in your mind or body is withing Everything. And all objects in the room are within Everything.

5. Get glimpses of that One Everything. Your mind will likely snap right back into seeing individual objects and get attached to differences. That is OK. That is just the other perspective (the young woman). Seeing separation is not right or wrong. Yet, if you can get a good look at that One Everything, that is a direct look at a hair on the Ox's tail. 

6. Does this mean we strive to always perceive this One Everything? Does this mean there are no objects and no differences in life? No. It is just a different perspective and it is very practical in day to day life. After all, we drive a car, drink water have conversations with other people. It will be very difficult to have this One Everything perspective in public and when you are doing stuff. That is why it is so important to set aside quiet time practice to return to this One Everything state of being. Meditation, yoga, a walk in nature, sitting by a river and observing. . . 

Didn't see this wonderful reply before now, thank you so much for your great reply and great analogy with the image!!

I really appreciate it, even though there is no I, but whoever is writing this is appreciating it!

[korbes]

On 6/12/2018 at 0:13 AM, Leo Gura said:

It isn't. Consciousness is everywhere. But for the sense of you to exist, you've tricked yourself into thinking it is planted in that body. Without an ego consciousness would not feel planted in that body.

Look around the room. The entire room is made of consciousness. Consciousness is not located inside your body or head.

There is no you who is aware, and vision is not yours. That's the illusion ego creates.

 You ARE everyone and everything. But you believe you are not, so it feels to you like you are separate.

What you think affects your reality. By thinking your exist, you come into existence. Stop thinking you exist and you will cease to exist.

Because you believe you're alive. Stop thinking you exist and you will disappear. The body will continue as though it was never yours. You will cease to be "stuck to it" because you will cease to be at all!

No, all objects arise within one unified field of consciousness.

Imagine a hard drive with many virtual partitions. It is always one hard drive but the virtual partitions help to create temporary sub-domains within the drive, which can be useful. The key is to always remember that the partitions are not real but imaginary.

Consciousness subdivides itself through imagination, because in truth there is only unity. Division can only happen through imagination. Kind of like how a hard drive cannot physically cut itself into separate parts, but it can partition itself virtually.

Food for thought, or maybe food for awareness, thanks for your reply Leo, really valuable!