Green Ego’s hidden superiority

[Benoit Jazy]

Hi guys, I contemplated something today and I wanted your advice. Here’s a situation to help understand.

Stage orange friend : “I banged a big fat girl and she was 2/10.”

Me : “don’t forget this girl is a human being who probably has some self trust issues and maybe that’s why she is fat and maybe you should consider her more bla-bla-bla”.

Then I realise that actually, even if I was convinced that I was right, my point of view is just as valid as his...

Is it my ego with a very hidden air of superiority? I truly believe my POV is more moral and respectful but is it the case? Are all POV true and thus I am deluded?

Who is to judge? 

I think I am having the realisation that I am stage green more than I admit, in the sense that I still have a point of view to defend. I was not trying to impose my POV on him but still... -and what’s an ego without that? A yellow or turquoise person would also have some opinion about things isn’t it?

And what’s left to talk about if all POV are true? 

[Forestluv]

Beautiful. Those questions are challengeing Green’s delusions

 

[Emerald]

25 minutes ago, Benoit Jazy said:

Hi guys, I contemplated something today and I wanted your advice. Here’s a situation to help understand.

Stage orange friend : “I banged a big fat girl and she was 2/10.”

Me : “don’t forget this girl is a human being who probably has some self trust issues and maybe that’s why she is fat and maybe you should consider her more bla-bla-bla”.

Then I realise that actually, even if I was convinced that I was right, my point of view is just as valid as his...

Is it my ego with a very hidden air of superiority? I truly believe my POV is more moral and respectful but is it the case? Are all POV true and thus I am deluded?

Who is to judge? 

I think I am having the realisation that I am stage green more than I admit, in the sense that I still have a point of view to defend. I was not trying to impose my POV on him but still... -and what’s an ego without that? A yellow or turquoise person would also have some opinion about things isn’t it?

And what’s left to talk about if all POV are true? 

All POVs are not true. In fact, all POVs except the absolute have only relative truth. But they have varying amounts of relative truth, as some relative truths are more in alignment with reality and some relative truths are narrower and less in alignment with reality.

But they are neither morally right nor wrong, since morality is inherently relativistic. 

But if your desire is for a particular outcome, such as the social harmony, then it is true that your friend's way of being will stand in the way of that.

But if your desire is for social discord, then your friend's way of being will be more in alignment with that goal.

So, something is only right or wrong in relation to a desired outcome. And neither outcomes are less valid than the other. The universe is perfect whether or not human beings live in social harmony and peace or social discord and suffering.

But it is a nearly universal human preference for social harmony and peace, so it makes sense to behave in ways that beget that end. But it also makes sense to discourage ways of behaving that stand in the way of that goal.

But if your goal is to produce as much needless suffering as possible, then going around poking at people's potential insecurities is one way to achieve that goal. Or you could just go around setting homes on fire and killing people. That'll do the trick too, and a lot more quickly and efficiently than calling people fat.  

 

[Forestluv]

5 minutes ago, Emerald said:

All POVs are not true. In fact, all POVs except the absolute have only relative truth. But they have varying amounts of relative truth, as some relative truths are more in alignment with reality and some relative truths are narrower and less in alignment with reality.

There’s a little rabbit hole there if reality itself is relative.

[Emerald]

1 minute ago, Serotoninluv said:

There’s a little rabbit hole there if reality itself is relative.

It certainly can become a rabbit hole, if a person is not in touch with their emotions and defaults to thought. To come at this perspective from a purely intellect-based perspective, you can lose all bearings on what path is wisest to take. It's an awful place to be.

[Shadowraix]

Your view may be a further step forward in reducing suffering, but that does not make it more correct, or right.

Its just his overall goals and yours aren't aligned. Reality favors only the outcome that happens.

In terms of relativity all POVs are at the same time accurate and inaccurate.

 

Edited December 4, 2018 by Shadowraix

[Leo Gura]

2 hours ago, Benoit Jazy said:

And what’s left to talk about if all POV are true?

Part of the problem with Green is getting lost in relativity: "everything's relative so anything goes. Let's let criminals run loose and do whatever they want."

No!

All POVs have some partial truth, BUT not all POV are equally functional. Some POVs are really pathological, dangerous, and limiting to upward mobility on the Spiral.

Green is a more evolved and healthier POV than Orange, but Green still has its limits and problems.

Your Orange friend is slightly more deluded than you. And it can be useful to point out his delusion to him.

[Haumea2018]

2 hours ago, Benoit Jazy said:

Is it my ego with a very hidden air of superiority? I truly believe my POV is more moral and respectful but is it the case? Are all POV true and thus I am deluded?

Emerald is right that a POV is right only relative to a desired outcome.

Where she is off is in maintaining that the Green POV leads to social harmony.

That's simply not the case, and anyone who's been paying attention to current events all over the world can see it.

Green ultimately leads to maximal social disharmony: elites vs. working classes, white vs. POC, men vs. women, etc.  It is endless war, and they are the military contractors: the only beneficiaries in it.

Greens don't get that you can't simply browbeat people into behaving the way they want them to in order to achieve their vision of society, that behavior has deep root causes and that social disapproval is not a tool that works when deep root causes are left unacknowledged.  

Or they get it but benefit (even if only in perceived social status) too much to change.

Kudos to you, though, my friend.  You just had an awakening.  

Edited December 4, 2018 by Haumea2018

[Wyze]

@Benoit Jazy hey op, im in Green too. I make many "moral judgements" like you too. Such is a Green life being Green... *shrugs*

The way I see it in the case of pointing out moral judgement is because my deep concern for win-win outcomes for ALL PARTY.

Say for example:

Quote

Me : “don’t forget this girl is a human being who probably has some self trust issues and maybe that’s why she is fat and maybe you should consider her more bla-bla-bla”.

My interpretation of why you did this is because, if this was a F-buddy situations, it doesn't help either party to continue the degradation in the relationship, if your orange friend thinks so lowly of her - not only will your orange friend might lose his benefits, she might go psycho on him too if she knew she was used and bitched about. This essentially is a Global worldview for the safety and future of your friend and his F-buddy.

I suspect an Orange friend probably wouldn't disclose he banged a 2/10, but if he did, your "suppose" to validate him with a "win-lose" Orange response?

I think the key in understand and integrate Green (to move onto Yellow), isn't to degrade your own feeling, concerns and an empathetic worldview, but to understand lower tiers can't naturally see/understand win-win scenarios include emotions too.

The egoistic exists in response and how you respond eg. if you blurt your thoughts out without the concern and enquiry of where his at and why his is at where he is. But you are not egoistic for having your views. And if he was waiting for a response from you anyway, you have the right to express your Green views rather than lie to meet his Orange view.

Edited December 4, 2018 by Wyze

[Wyze]

2 hours ago, Haumea2018 said:

Greens don't get that you can't simply browbeat people into behaving the way they want them to in order to achieve their vision of society, that behavior has deep root causes and that social disapproval is not a tool that works when deep root causes are left unacknowledged. 

Here is food for thought.

Most of what is called " social root  causes" are really psychological harm from childhood and early environments. Which means that how your parents treated you is what you've normalized as normal, global and "healthy" environments. Because anything otherwise will cause to much cognitive dissonance. Sure this is a great strategy to survive your childhood, but not in adulthood. (All stages up to Orange will refuse to do inner child work and shadow work).

This becomes very obvious once you move into Green. Why? Because up until Orange, emotional connection did not matter to you. It might be all about achievement, status, power and order. And to partner with someone: well do it by exploiting, luring, forcing or tricking someone.

Green understand people -  you, me, everyone on this forum is more than a NPC, Everyone is battling inner child or internalized social norms that no longer serves us. We are products that are running scripts of our childhood, which made us shut down to our emotions. Green exists to awaken your emotions, and to help you get out of it, once for all.

Edited December 4, 2018 by Wyze

[Haumea2018]

27 minutes ago, Wyze said:

Green understand people -  you, me, everyone on this forum is more than a NPC, Everyone is battling inner child or internalized social norms that no longer serves us. We are products that are running scripts of our childhood, which made us shut down to our emotions. Green exists to awaken your emotions, and to help you get out of it, once for all.

This is the "good" Green.

The "bad" (i.e. dark side of) Green is exploitation of a different kind than Orange.

It is exploitation of people by dividing them into victims and oppressors/perpetrators.

Then victims are infantilized and patronized and oppressors harshly castigated or destroyed.

The "bad" Green is an unfortunate addiction to this dichotomy.

And yes, it is indeed exploitative.

Is it about the oppressed or is it about your personal relevance and significance in caring for/protecting/uplifting the oppressed? Is it about credit-hogging?  If their lives improve, was it because of your actions or theirs? Do they "owe it all to you?" These are very tough questions to ask oneself.

In essence, what differentiates Yellow from Green is that Yellow understands that emotionality isn't the end-all-be-all of human flourishing; that overprotecting people can be harmful, and emotions untampered by other values (such as reason, wisdom, common sense) can be highly destructive.

Edited December 4, 2018 by Haumea2018

[Wyze]

14 minutes ago, Haumea2018 said:

This is the "good" Green.

The "bad" (i.e. dark side of) Green is exploitation of a different kind than Orange.

It is exploitation of people by dividing them into victims and oppressors/perpetrators.

Then victims are infantilized and patronized and oppressors harshly castigated or destroyed.

The "bad" Green is an unfortunate addiction to this dichotomy.

This is the process of learning in Green. Its when all the negative and unsolved emotions of the past comes back to hit you in the face, and the first reaction (if not learnt from the lower levels) is to blame others. The outcome of that is division and labelling the others. Knee jerk reaction to perceived inequality.

In Green (the first level) you have to learn to sit with your feeling, and question the inside; and understand what is outside is also within. Its the first level where you learn to stop blaming. One of the key to move on from Green is to practice System Thinking religiously until you internalize how to think differently; like a Blue reading the Bible.

The learning process of Orange is mass exploitation of people and natural world. The learning process of Blue is Crusades. The learning process of Red is unjust and unnecessary violence. Each level is where you learn by being the worst of your colour and realize how that no longer serves you anymore, to move on.

You cannot deny and blame someone's process.

Edited December 4, 2018 by Wyze

[Haumea2018]

27 minutes ago, Wyze said:

Each level is where you learn by being the worst of your colour and realize how that no longer serves you anymore, to move on.

I like that.  

Quote

Most of what is called " social root  causes" are really psychological harm from childhood and early environments. Which means that how your parents treated you is what you've normalized as normal, global and "healthy" environments.

Yes, but there is also the collective social reality of the time as well, such as an unhealthy or morally corrupt society.  It's not like every socially unacceptable response is wholly the product of parentally induced childhood trauma; sometimes a society is just plainly sick and instigates division and hatred.

Edited December 4, 2018 by Haumea2018

[Wyze]

42 minutes ago, Haumea2018 said:

And yes, it is indeed exploitative.

Is it about the oppressed or is it about your personal relevance and significance in caring for/protecting/uplifting the oppressed? Is it about credit-hogging?  If their lives improve, was it because of your actions or theirs? Do they "owe it all to you?" These are very tough questions to ask oneself.

In essence, what differentiates Yellow from Green is that Yellow understands that emotionality isn't the end-all-be-all of human flourishing; that overprotecting people can be harmful, and emotions untampered by other values (such as reason, wisdom, common sense) can be highly destructive.

Hey I didn't see this part, below is my reply.

This is the reflection of each level and their worldview isnt it?

Green sees "emotions" in others as valid cause because of their own understanding and realization of suppressed emotions and emotional invalidation.

Orange see "material and intellect" as valid cause because of their own understanding of lack of influence.

Blue see "authority" as valid cause because of their own understanding of the time when its all chaos and lack of order.

Red see "power" as valid cause because of their own understanding of lack of status and lack of attention.

In essence, Green is expressing/judging/criticizing the external world precisely because of their understanding in the field emotions, morals, ethics etc. I think the other stages particularly dislike Stage Green, is because Green is the first stage where the internal holds more value than the external. Its uncomfortable to feel exposed by someone else; who knows where you've been hiding your pain.

 

17 minutes ago, Haumea2018 said:

I like that.  

Cheers

Edited December 4, 2018 by Wyze

[Haumea2018]

14 minutes ago, Wyze said:

In essence, Green is expressing/judging/criticizing the external world precisely because of their understanding in the field emotions, morals, ethics etc.

Unfortunately that's a limited understanding because Green doesn't fully understand human psychology.  It understands the part about the importance of emotions and identity, but not the part about projection and egocentric motivation.

In essence, it has a blindspot.  

Edited December 4, 2018 by Haumea2018

[Wyze]

1 minute ago, Haumea2018 said:

Unfortunately that's a limited understanding because Green doesn't fully understand human psychology.  It understands the part about the importance of emotions and identity, but not the part about projection and egocentric motivation.

In essence, it has a blindspot.  To be crass, it thinks its own farts are French perfume.

Its the process of learning in Green. Trial and error. Make mistakes. Hurt yourself and hurt others in your knee jerk response. Upset people. Lose friends. Its all part of the learning.

You can't expect Green to be in "God Mode" from day 1.

Imagine building a business from scratch is hard for Orange, but for Green, its both hard and painful to dissect every internal emotion and every reaction; every single second of the day.

But understand this - Green's intention is good. But the initial method can be crude and crass until they are ready to move on.

This is not different from Orange's intention (build wealth), Blue (create order), Red (establish power)

[Wyze]

37 minutes ago, Haumea2018 said:

Yes, but there is also the collective social reality of the time as well, such as an unhealthy or morally corrupt society.  It's not like every socially unacceptable response is wholly the product of parentally induced childhood trauma; sometimes a society is just plainly sick and instigates division and hatred.

There is no society and their citizens, currently on this planet, that is completely 100% absolutely destructive out of psychopathic tendency.

Alot of pain is cause by a mixed cause of inter-generational trauma, bad childhoods or traumatic experiences.  Some I believe may have biological psychopathic tendencies, but they are minority.

Every society is going have a mix bag of different people.

Thats why Spiral Dynamics is a good model to explain - "where majority" of people are at, in any given society.

[lmfao]

@Benoit Jazy from my experience with stage green people, some of them are palpably hypocritical like some stage blue are. Some extreme stage green people will be very preachy and moralise a lot. Whilst they can talk the talk they may not be able to walk the walk. 

Edited December 4, 2018 by lmfao

[Benoit Jazy]

4 hours ago, Wyze said:

@Benoit Jazy

I think the key in understand and integrate Green (to move onto Yellow), isn't to degrade your own feeling, concerns and an empathetic worldview, but to understand lower tiers can't naturally see/understand win-win scenarios include emotions too.

The egoistic exists in response and how you respond eg. if you blurt your thoughts out without the concern and enquiry of where his at and why his is at where he is. But you are not egoistic for having your views. And if he was waiting for a response from you anyway, you have the right to express your Green views rather than lie to meet his Orange view.

That's what I was questionning. Sure I can understand his POV because I've been through it, and now I realize it is not healthy.  I deeply believe that an empathetic worldview is best because I've suffered through orange's excess. It is more in alignment with my heart and emotions but can it be the ego's sneaky reconstruction with more healthy values, just to hold on to its existence? It is a thin line.

If you realize that a POV is still just that, a POV, woudn't you become fully enlightened because you have nothing more to argue and you're only left with being?

I don't deny the necessity for Yellow solution, I am just wondering if it could be the ultimate ego's trick to resist being and stay in the mind.

Edited December 4, 2018 by Benoit Jazy

[Wyze]

@Benoit Jazy it'll be nice to hear from a Yellow on how they would respond in this situation.

I feel that the ego is when you start imposing your worldview onto others without them asking you. but having a Green view is not egoistic. You are adding 1 more factor into your worldview (emotions).

Imagine if this is a Blue vs Orange discussion, and Orange views is that business is the means to an end. While Blue is calling them all sorts of names because Business does not include God. Is the Orange wrong to have his Orange view? No.

The other time that I think that can be egotistical is when you force Green solutions (once again imposing your views) onto a situation where another colour solution would be better suited. eg. If you were dealing with a group of Red and they are off killing each other for power - and teaching them Orange starting business won't work, and telling them about Green seeking emotions won't either.

Edited December 4, 2018 by Wyze