I am not enlightened, but further than all that claim such a thing. Ask me anything

[Joseph Maynor]

I'm not surprised that I haven't even bothered to chime in on this debate.

Edited December 5, 2018 by Joseph Maynor

[Solace]

11 hours ago, Leo Gura said:

Enlightenment occurs when one catches the Ox. Not at picture #10.

This is why the ox-herding pictures and Spiral Dynamics are so useful.

I understand now Leo! When I talked about enlightenment I was always referring to stage 10. No wonder I was misinterpreting you.

So am I correct in saying that picture #10 (Sahaja samadhi) represents ultimate mastery over the mind, body and emotions; and the equivalent of stage tourquiose?

Edited December 5, 2018 by Solace

[non_nothing]

On 12/4/2018 at 3:12 AM, Arhattobe said:

 

I know more than you. Make use of me. I’m here to help. Ask me anything

 

If I ask questions, whom am I asking to?

[Tetcher]

@Leo Gura I reread your post and I see your point. You are worried about suffering and life long unfullfilment  if you don't accept the experiences that you had thanks to psychedelics as part of existentially meaningful growth.

I have a question for you however. Do you have clarity on these questions :

-If your psychedelics supply goes dry for years will your spiritual satisfaction remain at the level it is currently ?

-if you have a heart attack or other sudden death will you be able to conduct your death gracefully (at least without panicking)  ?

 

[Annoynymous]

@Leo Gura if enlightenment doesnt make me developed,  why pursue enlightenment?

If  development and enlightenment both necessary, which one to pursue first?    

[purerogue]

16 minutes ago, Tetcher said:

@Leo Gura I reread your post and I see your point. You are worried about suffering and life long unfullfilment  if you don't accept the experiences that you had thanks to psychedelics as part of existentially meaningful growth.

I have a question for you however. Do you have clarity on these questions :

-If your psychedelics supply goes dry for years will your spiritual satisfaction remain at the level it is currently ?

-if you have a heart attack or other sudden death will you be able to conduct your death gracefully (at least without panicking)  ?

 

Yes , it is very important to overcome existential crisis, every time I thought there is no more bs my mind can throw that can ruin my day , there was something bigger, now I am again at point where I am in blissfulness state and there is no more that can throw me off, but this time, I really doubt that there is anything left, I can't imagine what there is anything  I could think of that would make my go back to uncertainty.

Edited December 5, 2018 by purerogue

[luckieluuke]

Sounds to me like a simple difference in language. From what I gather from this: (as simple as I can put it)
Awakening is when you realize the truth
Enlightenment is when you embody the truth

First you Awaken which basically anyone who put real effort to it can do. Enlightenment seems more mystical and I don´t know what it means really.

My interpretation is that awakening is the progress towards perfection, which is perfect in of itself, Its the journey. Enlightenment is Perfection which might not ever be reached but is a goal, the star to navigate by, Its the destination.

From this perspective I agree with Leo. What we focus on here is awakening, after you do that you might move onto other sources and communities. At this point what we do here we focus on awakening but in the same time are aware of the path after awakening.
But It seems of less importance to try to understand the path after awakening prior to awakening.

Edited December 5, 2018 by luckieluuke

[Arhattobe]

@Tetcher

Instead of Talking about Sadhguru I’ll mention a few people above him. Which would obviously mean he is not at the end.

Ramana Maharshi, Master Shen yeng, Suzuki. 

 

[Arhattobe]

@non_nothing Individuality on a karmic level. Which ties your energy onto your physical body exists until all fetters are eradicated.

So unless one is at the 10th ox in zen terminology. One is absolutely an individual. Regardless of what you experience or how you feel. Even if you feel non dual af lol.

Therefor if you ask questions. You are asking questions to whoever answers.

@luckieluuke

The problem with simplifying it to awakening and embodying. Is that it implies one’s perspective or “truth” won’t evolve. Which it will. So, so much.

A first grader will know “math”, and so will a professor. There is as much of a gap between those to in depth of knowing. As there is between someone in the 1st and 4th picture let’s say.

Edited December 5, 2018 by Arhattobe

[luckieluuke]

28 minutes ago, Arhattobe said:

 

@luckieluuke

The problem with simplifying it to awakening and embodying. Is that it implies one’s perspective or “truth” won’t evolve. Which it will. So, so much.

A first grader will know “math”, and so will a professor. There is as much of a gap between those to in depth of knowing. As there is between someone in the 1st and 4th picture let’s say.

Ofcourse there is problem with oversimplifying but that is what language, thought and ideas does. They take reality and put it in a box and decide this is the way it is, when in reality it´s not. But it´s the way we make sense of the world. Like saying something is Orange. There are infinite varieties of Orange but to simplify we call the Red / Yellow spectrum Orange.
In order for a first grader to understand what a math professor does we offer a simplified version. It´s not correct but it helps us work with it. If the professsor tried to explain in detail what he does the first grader wouldnt understand anything.
Similarly Buddhism says that no text is sacred or true. It´s just a tool to help you along the way and when you got the message and used the text leave it behind.
We are all at different stages on the path and for a newbie like me who don´t understand enlightenment I need a simple idea to work towards, when I get further down the road that idea has been left and replaced by a new more nuanced idea. Now I need a low resolution picture of Enlightenment and as I advance the picture will become clearer.
So for me I feel like I dont need an detailed explaination of enlightenment since Im not advanced enough to understand it. It might even me dangerous as my Ego might missunderstand it.

[Arhattobe]

@luckieluuke Just trying to be more nuanced, because the lack of nuance in most teachings led me to fall into more traps than one would like. 

That’s all.

[luckieluuke]

@Arhattobe Thanks for doing that, i´m grateful that you do; I enjoy reading your ideas / experience. I´m just offering my perspective,

Edited December 5, 2018 by luckieluuke

[non_nothing]

13 minutes ago, Arhattobe said:

So unless one is at the 10th ox in zen terminology. One is absolutely an individual. Regardless of what you experience or how you feel. Even if you feel non dual af lol.

Thanks.

 I am not familiar with ox terminology. But I am comfortable being in every stage.

 

My experience had shown me that I am just a basket.

Basket that's filled with thoughts and ideas.

Source is the life, past and past lives. The person is mostly composed of his/her parents. And unconsciously lives a life of his/her parents, so that his/her parents' parents aka grandparents, this goes infinite and you have infinite lives living inside you. That's what you are as psyche. I am no means know anything about karma but it is a bad luck becasue of the past lives. I guess this might be related to karma thing. But this is my authentic explanation for me.

 

I observed that when you silence the mind, you get the silence, pure awareness. But as a living being in the period of time as now, this has no usage for me. Afterall it is perfectly reasonable to the mind, that we cannot deny the fact that we're a living being in this body. Whatever or however one comes an identification with himself is false. What the Fuuuudge ever. Oneness, infinity, silence, noself, god, person, ego. They're all identities. Even the silence of mind is an experience of awereness. We can boil everything down to the awareness. I will use the "Awareness" as this from know on.

 

The awareness is present in this body right now. It has no use to me if someone tells me that you're everything with this awareness, since I don't know what s/he really mean and I cannot authentically get aware of any other thing except me/this/body.

 

No matter what, I have to use mind and words to express things and write these lines. Don't just throw off me "who writes etc." this is non sense at this point. If you will, I've been meditating for almost 2 years and I've got several personal experiences of no-self, pure awareness. I did not use any psychedelics.

 

The questions I would ask to you is:

- What are you thoughts overall of my believes/experiences gained?

- What's the point of this after all? If we would say god as an engineer and he tries some stuff, He'd do it without our awareness and run whole giant computer for a second to fetch answers if even he needs somehow lol. So what I am trying to conclude is that there must BE SOMETHING, in this life. ABOUT MEANING. What's your words on this one? 

For now I don't really have other questions in my mind, Thank you for your time spend on forums. It's apprecaited.

[Mada_]

I believe the awakening process is the most important pursuit of this life. I am still in school and faced with a lot of 'meaningful discussions' in various social situations, is this an idea worth sharing it should I just stick to my own pursuit? 

Also, it is surfaced that I am absolutely nothing. I think I'm having a similar realization of "oh okay I'm there", despite knowing there is much deeper I can go, what precautions should I take to not become a shit spiritual practicioner. I don't feel particularly evil in my 17 year old body, but there is some egoic excitement that pops up ever now and then which leads to the sharing of ideas that are simply not worth sharing, so the possibility of different undesirable traits that could be there that maybe could be perceived as normal but not pointed out as evil could surface in the future. 

Thank you for your wisdom, it is much appreciated. 

[Nic]

@Arhattobe  Hi buddy! Got a few questions for you... 

What do you still have to learn?

In which areas of spirituality but also in life general do you still feel like there is work to do?

Do you still have epiphanies?

What are your plans for the next years?

How does being alive feels for you?

Do you feel the need of living in a relationship?

What is sex like when you are enlightened?

How did your family members react to your enlightenment? 

How much would you rate your level of unconditional love? Is it a constant?

 

Thanks!

[CreamCat]

Enlightenment is complete zero? Does it mean non-existence?

How can you write comments if you are not thinking?

Also, I'm very interested in emotional mastery. How do you deal with internet trolls emotionally?

Edited December 5, 2018 by CreamCat

[Elysian]

14 hours ago, Arhattobe said:

A lifelong commmitment to growth/truth.

This is all that really needed to be said. The rest of the topic has been nondual masturbation. 

It takes individuals decades to achieve these higher states of being/consciousness because the ego of teachers complicates the path to resting in one's true nature.

The desire to grow, the desire to heal, the desire to know Truth, all of that is love. Surrender to love, give up your egoic desires. When you completely surrender to love, you'll find that place that lies before every thought, and be able to rest there. Rest in your true nature.

If you do that, you will effortlessly soar into the elevated consciousness that's alluded to in these traditions. Energetic blockages will fall away to let the Light shine perfectly through you. Stop complicating this, it's so simple. Recognize as an individual aspect of God, you don't know anything. It's ok, just let go. You're loved, and love has been waiting to catch you your entire life.

Ken Wilber and Andrew Cohen eloquently explain love here.

This song encapsulates Truth, it tells you everything you need to know.

 

[Arhattobe]

@luckieluuke np

@non_nothing Obsessing over identity or lack thereof is not helpful. Practice, Aim for growth, reflect on teachings and contemplate.

Genuinely try to learn for the sake of growth instead of covering up your life issues via intellectual entertainment, satisfaction, and gratification.

In regards to purpose. There is certainly a purpose to all of it. This can be seen as you gain depth as you get to higher and higher non dual states. I have nothing to say regarding purpose though. Asides from it exists.

.@Mada_ Keep your spiritual life to yourself. Unless a close friend seems interested. Most people simply don’t care, and won’t care regardless of how you put it. Will make it easier for you and then if you just keep it to yourself and just have regular human interactions with them.

In regards to traps. Learn from life. It will be your greatest teacher. If you let it. If you are genuine and self aware enough. You will see that every trigger, every self defence mechanism, and every reactionary part of you is based in deep issues that will only start to fade if you acknowledge them, look at them with honesty, and understand that you have a long, long way to go. 

Good luck:)

@Nic

What do you still have to learn?

let’s imagine a  woke video game character. 

This character has a number of stats.

Depth of awakeness or clarity of seeing would be one stat. Seeing absolute truth does not mean you don’t absolutely pervert said experience because it is filtered through a very very messy system with a ton of gunk in it.

Another stat would be Empathy level. Not just feeling love, but clearly witnessing and feeling the pain of people. Being able to see other people’s reality that vastly differs from your own. Not just intellectually but feel wise. Eg to feel why a serial killer is the way he is, to truly understand the diversity in life.

Those are two examples, there are many more facets. All these stats are interconnected, and they all have can grow. Until you reach buddhahood. 

These are areas that’s I still grow within.

In which areas of spirituality but also in life general do you still feel like there is work to do?

My previous answer. Answered this.

Do you still have epiphanies?

Epiphanies are normally grand, and happen when there is a lot of turbulence, and a lack of clarity.

They are also explosive and come out of left field.

Things cant catch you by surprise at a certain point. Mostly at least.

Nowadays new information coming in and and my clarity increasing feels quite normal and mundane.

What are your plans for the next years?

Nothing special. Job, girlfriend. The usual.

How does being alive feels for you?

Alright.

Do you feel the need of living in a relationship?

I am in one, not sure if I would if I wasn’t. Human contact is important and good though in general.

What is sex like when you are enlightened?

Not that good, I’m out of shape lol.

How did your family members react to your enlightenment? 

Its been a while, they don’t really care lol. 

How much would you rate your level of unconditional love? Is it a constant?

The experience of unconditional love and actually having it are very different. A lot of people that claim to experience unconditional love. Just experience a love high, and might act dikish because they do not see clearly.

True depth, love with understanding and wisdom is true unconditional love. 

I do experience that most the time. I’d say. It might have become constant recently, now that I think about it. @CreamCat Not sure.

[Arhattobe]

2 hours ago, CreamCat said:

Enlightenment is complete zero? Does it mean non-existence?

I don’t want to get lost in semantics of your question rn so I won’t touch the second part of your question but by complete zero I meant 0 karmic impressions. 

How can you write comments if you are not thinking?

like I am doing lol. Not sure what to say here.

Also, I'm very interested in emotional mastery. How do you deal with internet trolls emotionally?

The more you see clearly, and the clearer your vision, the clearer their pain, and the clearer their pain. The less triggered you’ll be:)

 

[Mu_]

30 minutes ago, Arhattobe said:

 

Thanks for showing up and giving alternate views on this mystery, the forum needs it.  That said drop the I know more then you vibe, or atleast look into it for your own growth (or perhaps once a Brit, always a Brit..... ).

Do you have a website, videos, book, anything broader then what you've shared?  I'd be curious, always looking to learn and grow.

Edited December 5, 2018 by Mu_