I am not enlightened, but further than all that claim such a thing. Ask me anything

[purerogue]

Just now, Arhattobe said:

A story?

 To reduce life. Reality. Every life. Every piece of suffering. Every person growing and walking towards th right direction as a “story”. 

Is a deep shame. Born out of nihilistic non dual escapist delusion.

You just made your own assumption, some hate or something , story is just story , does not matter if purpose is to decrease suffering, it might as well be to increase it, it is still story, my question has nothing to do with purpose of it , but whatever it is written already, how much saying your ego has on its ending. 

[purerogue]

Anyway I found answer for my question within me, thanks for giving me your time. 

[Arhattobe]

Apathy, Nihilism, and dismissal of life do not equal detachment. But a rejection of life fuelled from unrequited love/attachment.

Detachment does not dismiss. 

[Leo Gura]

@Arhattobe It is problematic to conflate the realization of Absolute Truth with the development and perfection of the human body/mind. These are two very distinct things. By making this conflation, as you say, no one is enlightened, because your definition of enlightenment has become an idealistic fantasy.

There are many lines and stages of human development alongside many states and degrees of consciousness.

Nonduality can be grasped at many depths, it has multiple facets, and the realization of all those insights will not automatically make you a perfect human being.

The way we use the terms enlightenment/awakening on this forum is to mean: the realization of no-self, God, Infinity, or Absolute Oneness. That life is a dream. This can happen and you can still have all sorts of fetters, bad behaviors, and psychological stuff. In fact, that's almost guaranteed.

We do not use the word enlightenment to mean, "The total purifcation of karma and mind", or total mastery.

Total mastery is a pipedream for most people and will take you 30+ years of industrial-grade practice.

Enlightenment occurs when one catches the Ox. Not at picture #10.

This is why the ox-herding pictures and Spiral Dynamics are so useful.

[Arhattobe]

@Leo Gura In fact it is problematic not to do so, because by not doing so one who awakens, and becomes aware of the absolute might falsely believe that he understands life. 

When he lack great, great nuance. 

He might then come to numerous nihilistic conclusions. The seeming implications of his newfound realisation might be based in delusional, escapist tendencies, but if he thinks he is enlightened they will be unquestioned.

Then Falsehoods will be passed on by such a person as the “truth” spoken by an “enlightened” man. 

At best such a person can be considered a beginner on the spiritual path. 

The term enlightenment should be reserved for one who walks the path genuinely, with self awareness, without escapism after such an awakening.

Who through years of growth begins to see holistically that the relative and absolute should not be seperated. Nor should absolute truth be dismissive of relative truths. They should merge, with nuance and depth. 

To completely eradicate all fetters.

Such an outcome. Which is not idealistic fantasy. Just rare can be worthy of the the term enlightenment then.

[kieranperez]

35 minutes ago, Leo Gura said:

Total mastery is a pipedream for most people and will take you 30+ years of industrial-grade practice.

Not going to lie, feel a bit disheartened by this. Not at you but because I see how this is probably true and I feel like, in the end, I’m not that different from most people and I finally decided ‘this enlightenment thing is the thing I want to master and make my service to others’ but really, I dont see any evidence as to how I could be among the exception among millions of people who really have no chance at mastering this. The intent is finally there and I’ve been starting to meditate more and more doing multiple 1 hour sessions but still, what are the slim minuscule odds that I have at mastering this thing that more often than not takes decades to master?...

[Arhattobe]

@kieranperez You sound like a great human being. Self aware and genuine. Keep at it. 

Wherver you are, and wherver you’ll end up. You’ll grow, find more meaning, more depth and more life awaiting you.

Gl

[kieranperez]

37 minutes ago, Arhattobe said:

The term enlightenment should be reserved for one who walks the path genuinely, with self awareness, without escapism after such an awakening.

Your claims of how people should refer to enlightenment is itself a fantasy so let’s get that straight. Enlightenment isn’t some holy word that need only be used in some particular way. 

Anybody who goes parading around telling others “you know nothing I have it all figured out. I understand everything in this life” is just bullshitting themselves. Having “full” spiritual development doesn’t even mean you understand all of reality. You can learn forever and any master will be the first to tell you that. Your lack of humility and arrogance is just more of sign that you need to self reflect.

Also, saying all this stuff on a forum doesn’t mean you’re some credible authority. One of the biggest traps in this work for seekers is that anyone can say anything. You can say and type all the “right” things but that doesn’t make you credible or make you worth listening to. Anybody can talk brash about the need to wake up now and have the whole Jed McKenna approach or the wise soft spoken approach and say all the answers and it doesn’t mean anything. Make your service to the world and your actions in it reflect your awakening. I don’t know if you’re genuine or not. In the end, the “I know what’s true, I know more than you, I have it all figured out” attitude says more than any nondual question answer you give. 

Also, if you’re in your 20s, 30s, or haven’t put at least 10 hard years of work into this, you would hardly be deamed a master.

Keep in mind, this isn’t to diss or trash you. You seem well intentioned. 

Edited December 4, 2018 by kieranperez

[Space]

11 minutes ago, kieranperez said:

Not going to lie, feel a bit disheartened by this. Not at you but because I see how this is probably true and I feel like, in the end, I’m not that different from most people and I finally decided ‘this enlightenment thing is the thing I want to master and make my service to others’ but really, I dont see any evidence as to how I could be among the exception among millions of people who really have no chance at mastering this. The intent is finally there and I’ve been starting to meditate more and more doing multiple 1 hour sessions but still, what are the slim minuscule odds that I have at mastering this thing that more often than not takes decades to master?...

What do you actually mean when you say you want to master enlightenment? If you mean like Ralston level then fair enough it will take a long time. But achieving mastery in the field of spirituality is not necessary for radically changing and improving your life. Just the permanent recognition of no-self alone would be life changing. Sure thats rare, but still certainly possible and definitely within your capabilities. Not sure why you would feel disheartened. In the end you are not like most people. Most people are not even close to doing this kind of work. And you have more resources, knowledge and understanding about this field than the majority of people ever in history! 

[Arhattobe]

@Space Said it a lot better than me lol 

[Leo Gura]

1 hour ago, Arhattobe said:

When he lack great, great nuance. 

He might then come to numerous nihilistic conclusions. The seeming implications of his newfound realisation might be based in delusional, escapist tendencies, but if he thinks he is enlightened they will be unquestioned.

Then Falsehoods will be passed on by such a person as the “truth” spoken by an “enlightened” man. 

At best such a person can be considered a beginner on the spiritual path. 

A) Spirituality is full of traps no matter how you slice it.

B) This problem is solved through studying diverse sources and having maps like the Zen ox-herding pictures and Spiral Dynamics.

The greater danger with the way you are presenting enlightenment -- as total mastery -- is that people will always fall short of the fantasy, including yourself. Which then produces guilt and suffering. What you are really talking about is totally emotional mastery, and that is VERY different than enlightenment. It is significantly harder and a lot of people can become very frustrated chasing that.

This sort of all-or-nothing approach is counter-productive and fills newbies with fantastical ideas of becoming perfect human beings after awakening. The fact is, you will awaken long before you become a perfect human being. Because these are independent variables.

By all means pursue mastery. But make a distinction between it and awakening.

If your definition of enlightenment excludes Ramana Maharshi, Shinzen Young, Osho, etc. you might want to rethink your definition.

[Arhattobe]

@Leo Gura What I am really talking about isn’t just emotional mastery. Reducing one’s dharmic development post awakening to emotional mastery will give people the wrong impression. 

An awake person can still be highly delusional from a holistic standpoint and be very ignorant of numerous aspects of life. This isn’t just related to emotional mastery, but clarity of vision. Clarity of perception.

Lack of distortion and perversion of information seen.

”full mastery” or arhatship is 0 distortion and complete clarity. As the heart sutra put it. Perfect Nirvana. 

Anyone below that needs to keep striving, keep growing for they will still suffer from dukkha due to karmic rebirth.

Presenting things this way will give people a more realistic and healthier perspective of the path. Instead of what I did. Putting all of my eggs in the basket of awakening, and realising post awakening. I still had loads and loads of issues:)

I see the validity of your points though, but obviously believe mine is more productive let’s say.

Edited December 4, 2018 by Arhattobe

[SOUL]

21 hours ago, Arhattobe said:

I know more than you.

Who knows more than who? WHO!

[outlandish]

3 minutes ago, Leo Gura said:

The greater danger with the way you are presenting enlightenment -- as total mastery -- is that people will always fall short of the fantasy, including yourself. Which then produces guilt and suffering. What you are really talking about is totally emotional mastery, and that is VERY different than enlightenment. It is significantly harder and a lot of people can become very frustrated chasing that.

This sort of all-or-nothing approach is counter-productive and fills newbies with fantastical ideas of becoming perfect human beings after awakening. The fact is, you will awaken long before you become a perfect human being. Because these are independent variables.

By all means pursue mastery. But make a distinction between it and awakening.

It produces guilt and suffering if you're attached to being enlightened.

Enlightenment as a process is something that's continually unfolding, and something that everyone can experience. But "being enlightened" is so paradoxical that it's beyond rare.

Why distance enlightenment from mastery? True enlightenment is the ultimate mastery, black belt of all black belts, completely transcending the idea of black belt. We're not talking about Gautama Buddha 2600 years later (or whatever) because he made it part way there. Maybe no one ever gets there, and that's ok.

Newbies shouldn't have the idea that they can become enlightened because it just confuses the whole thing. It becomes an ego trip and an obstacle in itself. Enlightenment is like the North Star in that it gives us a reference point for navigation, but we don't try to get it.

This is a difficult and thorny subject to discuss, and I hesitate to do so... these opinions are in no way intended to represent the truth lol.

[Arhattobe]

Good perspective to have outlandish:)

It’s Healthier to be committed to a lifestyle. A lifelong commmitment to growth/truth.

As opposed to desperately seeking an escape that might not come anytime soon.

Or worse develop a dogmatic belief system around “truth”, regurgitate the word of others , and hold on to your dogma with a religiousity that will actually hinder your growth.

[Tetcher]

@Arhattobe your description of spirituality seems a lot saner to me than what Leo describes even in this thread. Leo seems to have an urge to call himself awakened/enlightened that feels like self deception.

What do you say about Sadhguru. He claims complete liberation from karma and says that 80years after leaving the body his being will also disappear whereas other beings like the Buddha are still here.

Also are you aware of those beings that are supposed to be still around ? I'm not experiencing such things.

[purerogue]

Just now, Tetcher said:

@Arhattobe your description of spirituality seems a lot saner to me than what Leo describes even in this thread. Leo seems to have an urge to call himself awakened/enlightened that feels like self deception.

What do you say about Sadhguru. He claims complete liberation from karma and says that 80years after leaving the body his being will also disappear whereas other beings like the Buddha are still here.

Also are you aware of those beings that are supposed to be still around ? I'm not experiencing such things.

I do not know about his karma, but he clearly has ego issues left. 

[Tetcher]

@purerogue he says ego is necessary to operate in this world, he has a calculated ego which makes sense if he is free from karma.

[purerogue]

5 minutes ago, Tetcher said:

@purerogue he says ego is necessary to operate in this world, he has a calculated ego which makes sense if he is free from karma.

Well I am not as old and smart as him, I just stated what I can tell!  

[Leo Gura]

9 hours ago, outlandish said:

Why distance enlightenment from mastery? True enlightenment is the ultimate mastery, black belt of all black belts, completely transcending the idea of black belt. We're not talking about Gautama Buddha 2600 years later (or whatever) because he made it part way there. Maybe no one ever gets there, and that's ok.

I have warned you guys.

But you refuse to listen.

The Buddha wasn't talkin shit on a forum but starving himself to death in the forest.