Dr. Jack Daniels' running formula

[outlandish]

I've noticed that there seems to be quite a few runners on this forum. Wondering what you all think of Dr. Jack Daniels' methods, specifically the system he presents in his book "Daniels' Running Formula"?

I've found it to be a good fit for myself so far, but wondering what others think of the system as I'm pretty much a completely untrained amateur.

Come in @Sahil Pandit @kieranperez and whoever else is an avid runner..

[Sahil Pandit]

@outlandish I've talked to Kieran about this off the forum and it's in our top 5 best books as in intro to running theory.

I got this book at the beginning of cross country this year, and i plan to implement more of it this Track season for my runners.

Especially considering the section on VO2 max.

What i plan on doing is having a mile time trial early in the season so i can gather data on my runners and come up with their paces for tempo runs, long runs, easy runs, etc.

Right now we are in the off - season base building phase (easy mileage and workouts) and it'll be ramping up till February. 

[kieranperez]

Okay, my reply to this is going to be long. You’ve been warned LOL

[outlandish]

Cool guys. Looking forward to it @kieranperez lol

It seems like his paces and workouts are finely tuned, they really feel right for me. I know he's really well respected in the running world, it's encouraging to hear that you guys seem to give it the thumbs up too. I want to become a faster runner, and following his systems seems like the best way forward for me right now.

[kieranperez]

This is going to be a little all over the place but try to follow with my rambling:

Any system that confines itself to any particular methodology, practice, outlook, etc. is limited. Daniels Running Formula 2nd Edition was my first book on running training back when I was in 8th Grade. He's good for those new to running training literature. If you're looking for a book that'll get you some solid initial results with good improvement if you're inexperienced/starting out all the way up to people with pretty good experience and have gotten really good results (which is relative to the individual). Daniel's Running Formula along with most training books though tend to be:

• Stage Orange thinking (nothing wrong with that but it can get a lot better)
• Very cookie cutter and oriented around following recipes
• More often than not based around the assumption and mindset of "I've figured it out. Do it this way, not that way."
• Too left brain and logically oriented
• Indulges too much in rationalizing everything
• Tend to stifle creativity, open mindedness, confuses the map for the territory
• Leave out other perspectives
• Too stuck in materialism (as in the assumption of this is a physical reality and what not)

To make a quick side note let me say this: there's nothing really wrong with any of this if running isn't really your thing but you do want to maybe get some decent/good results in say a marathon you're prepping for or whatever it is you're doing. 

One of the things I learned from the last 11 years as a runner and being involved in the sport and having made this my obsession (which I feel like I'm slowly dwindling out of) was how much each major coach that brought breakthroughs in training left out all the other breakthroughs from prior generations... Now, where have you heard that before?  Hint: Ken Wilber & @Leo Gura. This is what most people who read these books end up adopting just like in spirituality. 

As far as technical stuff about his training, methodology, and philosophy - his style of training can get you good results. The term Tempo Run came from him. His stuff on lactate threshold, what it is, how to develop a more efficient lactate threshold, etc. I don't take too to heart because lactate threshold is just one of those really weird systems that you can't really pin down. It's kinda like the subconscious mind. Useful concept but doesn't really exist (not saying lactate threshold doesn't exist but the whole lactate curve thing is just wasted argument because everybody is different and there is no universal consensus - and as far as I'm concerned, there never will be). For me, along with most coaches so it doesn't have so much to do with Daniel's, he leaves a lot out. He leaves out the importance of sprinting and why distance runners need to learn how to sprint and learn how to sprint fast. Most coaches also dismiss very fundamental skill sets because training is so oriented around metabolic training like training one's aerobic system, anaerobic system, lactate threshold, alactic system, neuromuscular training, etc. Skill sets such as... how to run and not just giving someone cues to run like a robot which I see all the time. I see people trying to change their form and they end up looking like these mechanical robots. Learning how to run downhill. How to run uphill. Learning where to place their weight each foot strike. Learning how to train the mind and maintain mindfulness and equanimity through physical pain and not associate sensation as something that's happening to you (the self/ego). Learning how to race. I could keep going but there are a lot of nuanced skill sets that come with running that people over look because most people want to just build this ferrari engine that can go 200 mph (which is a Stage Orange mindset). 

Most of what I'm talking about though most people will never give a shit about because again, they just want to run fast. They don't want mastery. Which is totally fine. I've kinda accepted that's where running culture is at. That's why for example everybody I see at road races now are all about buying those ridiculous $250 Nike Vaporfly 4%'s that are only good for 1 marathon and several workouts before they're dead. 

For me, I would like to think I have a more Stage Yellow perspective with running. Every coach needs to be looked into and from all the years of research I've done a few things I can say is that there are thousands of different ways of accomplishing the same thing. One thing I invite people to look into is developing their own creativity with their running. All these methods and so forth are all just inventions. It's 1 out of many other different types of methods. The greatest coaches to me came up with something that worked for them that they built from scratch that worked at their time, place, people they worked with, etc. A good analogy I'd use would be people trying to follow schedules, plans, prescribed workout types, etc. as people sometimes trying to put a square peg in a round hole and then the get frustrated by the limited results that come with that approach and then I come along and point out that the round hole was an invention and maybe you could just bust out a square hole or toss the square peg for a round peg. 

To make a counterpoint to all that I've said, it's also important to taste a few different approaches and see what works for you, what resonates and what you respond well to and then transcend all the rules and norms. Get good at the rules before you break them. 

I could say more but I'm late for work lol

Edited December 3, 2018 by kieranperez

[outlandish]

OMG I just typed an epic response and it didn't submit properly. I'll take that as a sign that it was a little too epic, consolidate my thoughts and try again later. Thanks for your words, I appreciate it.

[kieranperez]

23 minutes ago, outlandish said:

OMG I just typed an epic response and it didn't submit properly. I'll take that as a sign that it was a little too epic, consolidate my thoughts and try again later. Thanks for your words, I appreciate it.

LOL 

I’ll add more to this later

[Outer]

I just started running. I just take a shitty clock, put a timer for 20x2 minutes and run for that length.

[outlandish]

Thanks for your ramble @kieranperez I vibed with a lot of that, followed you the whole way through.  I can tell I can learn a lot from running veterans like yourself and Sahil.

2 hours ago, kieranperez said:

Most of what I'm talking about though most people will never give a shit about because again, they just want to run fast. They don't want mastery.

When I said I want to to run faster, that was an understatement. What I want is to achieve Mastery in running. Not just saying that because of what you wrote, but it's something I put in my personal decade-spanning bucket list at my last birthday. I recognize that "mastery" might be unreasonable though. I've only been running for 7 years, seriously for the past 2 of those, and I'm in my early 40s. I think real genius level running master would probably need to start as a teen. Doesn't hurt to shoot high though.

Trail running is my passion, but I see track as a great way to cross train and quantify speed.

2 hours ago, kieranperez said:

Learning how to run downhill. How to run uphill.

I had a massive breakthrough with downhill running (on acid lol). Now, I'm a downhill running master. I could teach people, but no one would listen to me because I'm an old rookie haha.

Uphill is a different story, I have a long way to go. I'm looking for the breakthrough with this too, but I'm not sure there is one. I think it might just be a matter of putting in the training to develop the right strength and aerobic capacity. If anyone's had a break throughs with this I'd love to hear about it.

I think I have a lot to learn wrt. the mental aspects of running, and technique. I love getting to the point where everything is telling me to stop, and I just stay on top and say "No, this is just what it feels like to get better at running. Keep going." But I can go further with gaining discipline in this, and in other softer parts of the mental game, race strategy, attitude and so on. 

As for technique, I think a lot of that will come naturally with faster running. I know what you mean about robots, it's funny when you see someone obviously forcing some form that they're not really ready for, or that doesn't fit in with the rest of their form. On the other hand I want to stay open to adjustments, because after the downhill breakthrough I can see how a change can result in big improvements.

Right now I'm using a JD program that calls for 2 Q (quality) workouts a week. I pick the harder of the 2 and then substitute a trail run for the other. On the trail run I just let myself go for it without any holding back. I have so much fun with it that it ends up being what feels like a really good workout. The JD prescribed Q workout always feels amazing too, it takes me right to the limit without leaving me too worn out to run the next day. Every other day I just run really easy, volume miles. I really like those too, it's nice to just run without pressure, listen to an audiobook or whatever. The exception is once a week I usually take a full day off, and maybe another day I'll double up a run.

I guess I'm describing my approach in case it triggers any insights. Do you have any intuitions around what directions I should pursue to maximize mastery (or so) of running?

[Sahil Pandit]

@outlandish You seem pretty awesome and i bet we would all get along pretty well in real life haha.

Where are you from? What kind of trails you got there?

I live in a very flat area where this no hills, so we gotta get creative to simulate hill training.

[Sahil Pandit]

1 hour ago, outlandish said:

 

As for technique, I think a lot of that will come naturally with faster running.

I like this point.

I enjoy breaking down movement of athletes and showing my runners what muscles are being used while running at certain speeds. Also, things like yoga and breathing techniques, shamanic breathing, and mindfulness can go a long way in aiding an athlete's development. 

[outlandish]

15 hours ago, Sahil Pandit said:

@outlandish You seem pretty awesome and i bet we would all get along pretty well in real life haha.

Where are you from? What kind of trails you got there?

I live in a very flat area where this no hills, so we gotta get creative to simulate hill training.

Yeah man I bet we'd get along pretty well too!

I'm a bit private about where I'm from, but I'm lucky to have great terrain with tough hills basically in my backyard. Really rugged trails, amazing views, beautiful nature. I love it!

I like your points about how breathing and mindfulness can relate to running. I guess it's obvious that breathing relates to running lol, but being conscious of breathing is cool. Energy output simply comes from burning Oxygen + Glycogen (most of the time)! So being aware of that flow, and keeping it relaxed and open seems to help.

[Kev Draper]

Hi there, I'm new to this forum but really enjoying this thread and the insightful comments from some well-read, thoughtful runners.

I discovered running in my mid30s (now 51). 

I have used JD Running Formula for myself and with others I've helped to coach. I've found it quite a useful approach especially when targeting a certain time in a 10k or half marathon. I based most of my road marathon training around, but I fully agree that it has it's limitations.

Discovering trail and ultrarunning has opened up my eyes to the other 95% of what makes for "mastery" in running (love that concept!) - breathing, energy sources, strength, efficiency, quietening the mind, connection to the trail, running mindfully, embracing the 'pain' and keeping moving etc, etc. 

Anyway good to 'meet' you all. 

[outlandish]

Welcome @Kev Draper!

Your story reminds me a bit of myself, but you're a bit ahead of me. I discovered running in my mid 30s too, and am now in early 40s. Any general running advice for my upcoming decade? I'd love to be able to continue growing and improving in my running, but I can see that I've probably already plucked a lot of the low-hanging fruit. Beginning to suspect that I'm entering the phase of the "real work"! 

[Kev Draper]

@outlandishah yes the law of diminishing returns kicks in! My marathon progression has gone 3:41, 3:14, 3:05, 3:02 (in 2017) agonisingly close to the sub3 and I can sense the line flattening off!! Must have one more crack at it! 

I think threshold sessions (typically 5-6 x 1 mile or 8 x 1km off 45s recovery) have yielded most progress for me over the last few years in terms of marathon pace speed. Having chipped my 1/2 marathon time down to 1:23.50 and with the ultra training miles in the bank I really ought to be capable of a sub 3 marathon.

I have been extremely consistent with annual mileage (ave. 2500 for the last 10 years) with no major injuries and I think that has helped. I just enjoy trail running and I'm not so bothered about times and PBs as I was but still like the odd 'challenge' to give my training a bit of focus and variety.  

I'm pretty sure that more focussed and consistent strength and conditioning training would also make a difference but I choose to try to accomplish most of that by running hilly, trail routes most of the time. 

Cross training helps I believe - I also love swimming and cycling and this has probably helped to keep me from overdoing the running and injuring myself. 

For my ultra races the biggest challenge has been that I often get physically sick after 30 miles and can't keep anything down once my stomach has "shut down". Despite trying everything I can think of I can't get beyond this which is extremely frustrating and demoralising. I still managed to finish five 50 milers this year but in most cases the last 15 miles was pretty messy and unpleasant. 

Good luck with your running! 

[kieranperez]

@outlandish out of all the training books I’ve actually read on running, believe it or not I find Ralston’s Zen Body Being to be the most absolutely foundational. It may sound weird but if I had to pick a book, out of all the “fitness books” I’ve read and apply the principles I’ve learned in that book into my training, it would be that book. 

Nonetheless here are some good books I’ve read over the years on running and training:

• Daniels Running Formula
• Anything you can find on Renato Canova (search through letsrun.com forum)
• Running The Lydiard Way
• Run Run Run by Fred Wilt
• The Science of Running by Steve Magness (READ THIS)
• Better Training For Distance Runners by Coe & Martin (not a fan of the 5-Tier system but still a must  read)
• Every book by Vern Gambetta
• The Endurance Diet by Matt Fitzgerald
• Mark Hyman’s books on nutrition
• Zen Body Being
• Healthy Intelligent Training by Keith Livingstone (Modern day understanding of Lydiard)
• The Happy Runner by David & Megan Roche (friends and former coaches of mine. Great book especially if you’re getting into MUT Running - Mountain Ultra Trail)
• Training Essentials for Ultrarunning by Jason Koop (really a paradigm changer in how a lot of ultra runners train. His approach was a real game changer)
• Born To Run 
• Once a Runner by John L Parker (you’re not a runner if you haven’t read this. Period.)
• Lore of Running by Tim Noakes (you’ve got to be a real nerd for this. A lot of this isn’t true, particularly on the Central Governor Model but still a good read)
• Anatomy of a Runners by Jay Dichary
• Ready To Run by Kelly Starrett
• Becoming a Supple Leopard by Kelly Starrett
• Road to the Top by Joe Vigil
• Endure by Alex Hutchinson
• Ultramarathon Man by Dean Karnazes (used to do some runs with him actually here in Marin County) 

That should be good for now  

[outlandish]

@kieranperez thanks for the list, that's awesome, should keep me busy for a while!  

I've read a few of those: Endure, Daniels', Running the Lydiard Way (what an odd book! Seems like he was drunk or just didn't give a shit while he wrote it. Tons of gems in there, but just weird reading experience), Born to Run.

A couple other books I liked that I didn't see you mention were Relentless Forward Progress and Racing Weight.

[outlandish]

18 hours ago, Kev Draper said:

@outlandishah yes the law of diminishing returns kicks in! My marathon progression has gone 3:41, 3:14, 3:05, 3:02 (in 2017) agonisingly close to the sub3 and I can sense the line flattening off!! Must have one more crack at it! 

I think threshold sessions (typically 5-6 x 1 mile or 8 x 1km off 45s recovery) have yielded most progress for me over the last few years in terms of marathon pace speed. Having chipped my 1/2 marathon time down to 1:23.50 and with the ultra training miles in the bank I really ought to be capable of a sub 3 marathon.

I have been extremely consistent with annual mileage (ave. 2500 for the last 10 years) with no major injuries and I think that has helped. I just enjoy trail running and I'm not so bothered about times and PBs as I was but still like the odd 'challenge' to give my training a bit of focus and variety.  

I'm pretty sure that more focussed and consistent strength and conditioning training would also make a difference but I choose to try to accomplish most of that by running hilly, trail routes most of the time. 

Cross training helps I believe - I also love swimming and cycling and this has probably helped to keep me from overdoing the running and injuring myself. 

For my ultra races the biggest challenge has been that I often get physically sick after 30 miles and can't keep anything down once my stomach has "shut down". Despite trying everything I can think of I can't get beyond this which is extremely frustrating and demoralising. I still managed to finish five 50 milers this year but in most cases the last 15 miles was pretty messy and unpleasant. 

Good luck with your running! 

@Kev Draper Sounds like you can crack that 3hr mark with that kind of 1/2 marathon time! Thanks for the threshold running tips - I feel like that kind of thing helps me a lot too. You remind me I need to get back in the pool too.

Re: getting sick, have you tried maltodextrin? It's been a nutritional godsend for me.

[kieranperez]

@outlandish I just don’t agree with Bryon Powell premise on training. Great guy. Love him. He used to stop at my old work (San Francisco Running Company). Love iRunFar but yeah don’t agree with him. 

Lydiard is awesome. Lydiard to me is probably the running coach of the 20th century. I used to be deeply inspired by coaches like him, Cerruty, and Bowerman. Those guys exemplify creative genius as coaches. I think they, like most people that create maps and systems that came from their own creative genius, went to far when they started creating a whole paradigm and cosmology on why their approach was the one true approach... now where have you heard that before?...  it’s a common link. 

Just remember they are all fundamentally arbitrary. The creativity, the principles, and the outcome you’re shooting for is what you need to guide yourself by. And that’s hard. That’s why self coaching is fucking hard and also why self coaching under this rationalist stage Orange paradigm and get out of this world results is near impossible because it’s so tricky. It’s SO much easier having a coach tell you what to do but to go through that same creative process and formulate all this stuff and be the very athlete that does it is hard. Always remember that the map is never the territory especially when you’re self coached. However if you don’t care about the creative stuff and just push out the miles and have someone tell you that’s fine. It’s easier. I personally, since I like questioning and have a hard time having faith in other coaches who take a lot of stuff for granted, don’t find that sustainable for me mentally and emotionally. However, I also ran faster too when I had a good coach because, although I knew more than he did, nailing the emotional and mental component is hard on your own when you’re the coach as you’re running your tempo or (what I call) “see god” intervals and no one is out there supporting you. It takes a certain person just like in entrepreneurship. So keep as emotionally and mentally simple as you can. 

[outlandish]

@kieranperez What is it about Byron Powell's premise you don't agree with? I don't remember many specifics from his book, but I've probably internalized some of what I read in his book, so I'm curious about where your viewpoint differs. I seem to remember that he emphasized training volume way over quality. I still think that's important, but I'm in favour of the "20%" (or so) quality (intervals etc) in my training currently.

I'm self coaching right now, I'm enjoying the process of experimentation and discovery, and I prefer that over being told what to do, even if it would be more efficient to have a coach. When I'm more experienced it might be cool to try out working with a coach at some point too though.

A question for you and @Sahil Pandit: in your training, how often do you feel you should go into that agonizing level of effort? You know when you are doing intervals or something, and you're pushing way into the severe discomfort territory? How often do you feel you should do that? Is that where the real growth happens, or is it just self-punishment that's going beyond the stress signal that your body needs for adaptation, or is it something to embrace and go even further into?