How is wisdom transferred?

[who chit]

42 minutes ago, Anton Rogachevski said:

@who chit

Thank you for your contribution sir.

If I may add, in my foolish opinion it's the collaboration between the intellect and the intutive proccess which produces wise and deep insights: for example Leo.

There is a process of mind/intellect in which it can be used as a tool of discernment/discrimination,for what is true and untrue. Jana yoga, for instance, is often considered one of the most difficult. It's the path of knowledge through strong intellectual discernment, in which the mind/intellect is used to inquire into its own nature in order to transcend the identification with thoughts and ego. It uses the mental techniques of self-questioning(inquiry), reflection(contemplation) and conscious illumination(insight). However,there are certain "prerequisites" needed in order for proper discernment of truth, from non truth.
The qualities or cultivation of non attachment toward the temporal objects and ego-mind,calmness/tranquility,tolerance of external, non-conducive situations commonly considered to produce suffering, and certainly, sustained devotion and intent towards realizing ultimate Truth.

Edited December 6, 2018 by who chit

[SOUL]

1 hour ago, Anton Rogachevski said:

On the contraray, it's all beautiful and insightful, Thank you for your contribution. It went deeper than I ever imagined. For me the best part is the insights invoked by integrating all the different perspectives.

To see the failure in communication also sheds much light on the issue. Which is what evoked this inquiry in the first place. I've tried to communicate my insights to another person with a rich background in spiritual practice, and to my surprise I was met with a huge wall of misunderstanding, no interst at all to ask simple existential questions, and pure resistance.

Obviously our friend here is young and full of complex terms, which is really ok, because the path to become wise includes being very foolish for very long.

That's awesome, thank you, i appreciate your kindness and acceptance. I'd love to say it is about age but after decades of being around spiritual communities and these types I can say it really doesn't matter the age.

One of the common indicators of resistance I've found is in that moral dualism I touched on before. It's not a universal indicator but I've found the ones who strongly characterize their perspective as 'truth' typically are quick to characterize the perspectives that don't mirror their own as 'false' and those that hold them negatively.

It's just more dualism mindset from ego identity that creates division and separation yet they don't seem to recognize it. Once one is aware of it's influence it is amazing how obvious it becomes to spot it even in ourselves... well especially in ourselves.

Peace.

Edited December 6, 2018 by SOUL

[Anton Rogachevski]

@SOUL

I would like to share one more general observation:

Please let it not disqualify the good parts of the discussion. There can be both good and bad sides at the same time.

It seems we are all cought in a compulsive cycle of recating to each other, and it consumes a lot of time and attention. That's why I usually don't hang here that much. As entertaining as it is, it ends up being a general distraction.

A very high quality entrainment indeed. One could even excuse it as a progressive, deep, mutual live contemplation.

Edited December 6, 2018 by Anton Rogachevski

[Nahm]

1 hour ago, Anton Rogachevski said:

Thank you dear sir. Would you care to eleborate on your metaphor?

Once enlightened, it is revealed everyone was already enlighetened. Put more literally, there is, and ‘was’ only ever, The Enlightened One. There never was a separate ‘you’, only The Limitless One, only Being. Upon self realization, is the simultaneous realization there is no ‘other’ of course, only The Limitless One, only Being, veiling itself with characters & ignorance. 

Also then realized, relative to the thread, is that there is not, and never was such a thing as wisdom.

[RichardY]

“Yesterday we obeyed kings and bent our necks before emperors. But today we kneel only to truth, follow only beauty, and obey only love.” 

Kahlil Gibran.  

[Nahm]

2 minutes ago, RichardY said:

“Yesterday we obeyed kings and bent our necks before emperors. But today we kneel only to truth, follow only beauty, and obey only love.” 

Kahlil Gibran.  

Right in the feels!??

[Anton Rogachevski]

4 hours ago, Nahm said:

Once enlightened, it is revealed everyone was already enlighetened. Put more literally, there is, and ‘was’ only ever, The Enlightened One. There never was a separate ‘you’, only The Limitless One, only Being. Upon self realization, is the simultaneous realization there is no ‘other’ of course, only The Limitless One, only Being, veiling itself with characters & ignorance. 

Also then realized, relative to the thread, is that there is not, and never was such a thing as wisdom.

It's easy to say about all things that they don't exist, but the secret is to leave them alone entirely I guess. Meanwhile wisdom is useful to me in my little dream, so I will keep it.

[SOUL]

4 hours ago, Anton Rogachevski said:

There can be both good and bad sides at the same time.

The words good and bad are useless to me, people throw them around in so many ways with one saying something is good and another saying the same thing is bad. I prefer to use the words that describes what it is, there are plenty of people who want to make moral judgment but that isn't for me to do, I will discern.

4 minutes ago, Anton Rogachevski said:

It's easy to say about all things that they don't exist, but the secret is to leave them alone entirely I guess.

Yup, it's way too convenient to just say everything doesn't exist and much more of a challenge to accept things as they are.

[Elysian]

5 hours ago, Nahm said:

Once enlightened, it is revealed everyone was already enlighetened. Put more literally, there is, and ‘was’ only ever, The Enlightened One. There never was a separate ‘you’, only The Limitless One, only Being. Upon self realization, is the simultaneous realization there is no ‘other’ of course, only The Limitless One, only Being, veiling itself with characters & ignorance. 

Also then realized, relative to the thread, is that there is not, and never was such a thing as wisdom.

This is only part of the story. Realizing Absolute Truth, that all is one, is just the first step. 

Individuality has purpose, and that purpose becomes more clear the farther you move beyond Absolute Truth. Individuality is important all the way up to the highest level. It wouldn't exist otherwise, because God deals in perfection. 

It would also be more helpful for unenlightened beings to note that enlightenment is the act of waking up to one's Divine nature. People who still haven't experienced this shouldn't be referred to as enlightened, it only breeds confusion.

Edited December 6, 2018 by Elysian
Add

[Anton Rogachevski]

32 minutes ago, Elysian said:

This is only part of the story. Realizing Absolute Truth, that all is one, is just the first step. 

Individuality has purpose, and that purpose becomes more clear the farther you move beyond Absolute Truth. Individuality is important all the way up to the highest level. It wouldn't exist otherwise, because God deals in perfection. 

It would also be more helpful for unenlightened beings to note that enlightenment is the act of waking up to one's Divine nature. People who still haven't experienced this shouldn't be referred to as enlightened, it only breeds confusion.

It's very difficult to fathom, but god isn't perfect. He's perfecting himself through humans. Ideas of absolute perfection are only imagined by an ignorant absolutist ego.

[Nahm]

2 hours ago, SOUL said:

Yup, it's way too convenient to just say everything doesn't exist and much more of a challenge to accept things as they are.

Nice! ???

[Nahm]

2 hours ago, Elysian said:

This is only part of the story. Realizing Absolute Truth, that all is one, is just the first step. 

Individuality has purpose, and that purpose becomes more clear the farther you move beyond Absolute Truth. Individuality is important all the way up to the highest level. It wouldn't exist otherwise, because God deals in perfection. 

It would also be more helpful for unenlightened beings to note that enlightenment is the act of waking up to one's Divine nature. People who still haven't experienced this shouldn't be referred to as enlightened, it only breeds confusion.

Dualistically I agree, of course, but it doesn’t appear you are speaking about duality.

You are referencing absolute truth, that all is one, and then conflating it with duality: individuality, purpose, moving beyond, importance, “levels”, duality of existence and not, and God “dealing” in perfection. 

“Once enlightened, it is revealed that everyone is already enlightened” is not the same as saying “everyone is already enlightened”. Again, this is misunderstanding absolute & relative, reality & illusion, it is also conflation.

Confusion is a good thing, if someone self inquires to resolve it. Then, there is no story, no me, my, identification with thinking. That is surrendered in Truth, absolutely speaking, when the illusion is seen for what it is (isn’t).

Individuality does not exist, that is duality, illusion. There would need to be two for there to be uniqueness / individuality.  Nothing “exists”, and Nothing does not “exist”. 

If you can move “beyond” absolute truth, then it is not absolute, and was not the Truth.  “Enlightenment is the beginning”, is reference to the illusion. In Truth, there is no beginning, and no illusion. 

 God, You, are perfection (Infinite), the illusion - appearance, can only be imperfection (Finite), that is it’s perfection!

3 hours ago, Anton Rogachevski said:

It's easy to say about all things that they don't exist, but the secret is to leave them alone entirely I guess. Meanwhile wisdom is useful to me in my little dream, so I will keep it.

2 hours ago, Anton Rogachevski said:

He's perfecting himself through humans. Ideas of absolute perfection are only imagined by an ignorant absolutist ego.

Is that really true for you? Is it easy to say in honesty all things don’t exist? There are people who spend their entire life to realize that and never do. 

First know what a “thing” is.

God does not need humans, humans are illusory. God is whole, complete, perfect and innocent, and has no notion of need. “Need” is a thought. 

[purerogue]

My thoughts are that Enlightenment is not to escape this life, it is to realize that you are not your ego , you became your ego from interaction with everything, most profoundly people, you were told what to be , what to do , how to act, that is  how ego formed and that is how it goat attached to information, because you were forced to be something you are not, Enlightenment is to return to experiencing life, but whole new eyes, and little to no ego, you can't even blame ego , it is not there to stop you , it just got made and is stopping you. 

[Anton Rogachevski]

@Nahm Non-dualism is not a logical paradigm, you can't draw logical conclusions out of non-dual visions. It's a state dependant prism.

I have yet seen perfection. I did have divine spiritual experiences, and no perfection was present. I can't speak of god as you speak of it, until I witness it.

Since infinity includes everything it includes imperfection. Saying that infinity is perfect excludes imperfection.

Imperfection is perfection.

"Samsara is nirvana, nirvana is samsara."

"God is the devil." Leo

"God created adam in his own image."

Edited December 6, 2018 by Anton Rogachevski

[Elysian]

1 hour ago, Nahm said:

Dualistically I agree, of course, but it doesn’t appear you are speaking about duality.

You are referencing absolute truth, that all is one, and then conflating it with duality: individuality, purpose, moving beyond, importance, “levels”, duality of existence and not, and God “dealing” in perfection. 

“Once enlightened, it is revealed that everyone is already enlightened” is not the same as saying “everyone is already enlightened”. Again, this is misunderstanding absolute & relative, reality & illusion, it is also conflation.

You've only misunderstood yourself that realizing the Absolute Truth, and then coming back is meant to help further guide you down the path. If recognizing the Absolute nature of existence was all this reality was moving you towards, you would've simply ended then and there. You came back, even if you don't understand the purpose, or outright refuse to accept there is one at the highest level, it doesn't change the Truth. You come back to reintegrate your new nondual state with duality, if you haven't done so you just have more growing to do, or to become aware you've already been doing this.

Confusion is a good thing, if someone self inquires to resolve it. Then, there is no story, no me, my, identification with thinking. That is surrendered in Truth, absolutely speaking, when the illusion is seen for what it is (isn’t).

Confusion is a good thing when necessary to move forward, not when someone is needlessly adding confusion to people's lives. 

Individuality does not exist, that is duality, illusion. There would need to be two for there to be uniqueness / individuality.  Nothing “exists”, and Nothing does not “exist”. 

If you can move “beyond” absolute truth, then it is not absolute, and was not the Truth.  “Enlightenment is the beginning”, is reference to the illusion. In Truth, there is no beginning, and no illusion. 

 God, You, are perfection (Infinite), the illusion - appearance, can only be imperfection (Finite), that is it’s perfection!

It's called be the Absolute Truth because it is where existence springs from. But it springs for a Divine reason, and you wouldn't be allowed access to knowing of that Truth if it didn't serve a higher purpose of propelling you forward towards unifying existence. And you can only do that by assuming the role of individual within a nondual state. It sounds paradoxical, but it's because you still need to continue surrendering to love and authenticity.

 

Edited December 6, 2018 by Elysian
Grammar

[Jack River]

10 hours ago, who chit said:

However,there are certain "prerequisites" needed in order for proper discernment of truth, from non truth.
The qualities or cultivation of non attachment toward the temporal objects and ego-mind,calmness/tranquility,tolerance of external, non-conducive situations commonly considered to produce suffering, and certainly, sustained devotion and intent towards realizing ultimate Truth.

I think I feel what you mean dude. 

For me this was come about by going into the nature of fear. Which meant seeing the fact of how fear was evaded day in and day out. Then in that fact, truth was revealed about how I escaped what-is to what should be (influenced by a movement of the past-self) which distorted, and corrupted, observation, understanding, investigating. A total and holistic understanding of the fact that any movement away from fear or towards pleasure/satisfaction/psychological security, which is still fear, will bring about a looking/seeing/understanding that is conditioned and therefore corrupt/incoherent. Can’t explore a truth when there is no freedom to do so. 

Im not familiar with Jana yoga and all that, but what you wrote about seems similar dude. 

[Nahm]

@Elysian I really appreciate what you’re saying, and I am happy for you. ❤️

[SOUL]

Perfect can mean without flaw, flawless but it also can mean satisfying all requirements, complete. So when someone is saying the universe/god is perfect or I am perfect, most people interpret it as the first meaning when in reality that second meaning is what it pertains to.

The universe/god is complete and we can even view ourselves as 'perfect', complete and this still includes flaws. In fact, for something to be complete, satisfying all requirements and be perfect it must includes imperfection otherwise perfect doesn't exist. Flaws make the ideal of perfection complete and are required for it to exist.

Quite the paradox but when viewed in this way it is perfect.

[Anton Rogachevski]

5 minutes ago, SOUL said:

Perfect can mean without flaw, flawless but it also can mean satisfying all requirements, complete. So when someone is saying the universe/god is perfect or I am perfect, most people interpret it as the first meaning when in reality that second meaning is what it pertains to.

The universe/god is complete and we can even view ourselves as 'perfect', complete and this still includes flaws. In fact, for something to be complete, satisfying all requirements and be perfect it must includes imperfection otherwise perfect doesn't exist. Flaws make the ideal of perfection complete and are required for it to exist.

Quite the paradox but when viewed in this way it is perfect.

Beautiful! an integration of duality, and non-duality - the true mark of stage Yellow.

[SOUL]

1 minute ago, Anton Rogachevski said:

Beautiful! an integration of duality, and non-duality - the true mark of stage Yellow.

I've transcended the desire to see 'stages' and am pellucid. Hehe

To call the absence of dualism non-duality implies there is a duality and actually sets up another duality between these two perceived states that isn't really reflective of what exists in reality.

Even if there are two contrasting sides when viewing it from the universal perspective there exists those two sides and the whole, which is a third state that either of the other two don't possess individually. Then there is neither which is where the two sides aren't divided or joined as whole but is free from those distinctions.

So if we are going to be counting the sides of this object so to speak there are at least four. There's one, the other, both and neither but since we are talking about an infinite object I suspect there are equal number of infinite 'sides'... and a universal unity side.... and the none of the above side....and well, you see how this is a exponential fractal existence we're dealing with, not a finite zero sum one.

Remember me talking about the mistaken perception of the primitive mind seeing a duality that really isn't what it all exists as? Yea, it's hard to break that conditioning even when one tries to go 'non-dual'.

Perfect! Hah