How is wisdom transferred?

[Jack River]

The self also seems to love to make things difficult by super imposing the progression of stages too. 

The way i see it, all this stages, levels, progression is all an invention of thought that the self uses to worship itself. The self creates its own image and pursues that image. Therefore the image it has projected becomes its own self imposed realty. A satisfying illusion to maintain a certain sense of psychological security. The self is so clever dudes. It loves to create a most excellent drama

 

Edited December 5, 2018 by Jack River

[Forestluv]

22 minutes ago, Jack River said:

The self also seems to love to make things difficult by super imposing the progression of stages too. 

The way i see it, all this stages, levels, progression is all an invention of thought that the self uses to worship itself. The self creates its own image and pursues that image. Therefore the image it has projected becomes its own self imposed realty. A satisfying illusion to maintain a certain sense of psychological security. The self is so clever dudes. It loves to create a most excellent drama

 

The other side of that is a clever self that says "stages and progression is all an invention of thought that the self uses to worship itself". I've found that can be an avoidance technique of a clever ego.

I've found there is an awakening component and a development component. Two sides of the same coin.

[Jack River]

6 minutes ago, Serotoninluv said:

The other side of that is a clever self that says "stages and progression is all an invention of thought that the self uses to worship itself". I've found that can be an avoidance technique of a clever ego.

Sure..either one is still an action of cultivation/time. Psychological becoming or otherwise known as the positive/negative dynamic of self(resistance). 

But either way the self that looks to cultivate freedom via time(thought) actually sustains the divison between the experiencer and the experience, and therefore the root of conflict/suffering. Intelligence sees this movement of time and its falsity and ends that continuity of progression/cultivation/psychological evolution. 

This can be argued to death, yet still doesn’t change that reality. 

Edited December 5, 2018 by Jack River

[Jack River]

Cultivation/progression has it’s place as a function dudes, but when it comes to the psychological field it has no place at all. Psychological Freedom(liberation) is not the result of cultivation/time/thought. 

Edited December 5, 2018 by Jack River

[Jack River]

7 minutes ago, Serotoninluv said:

@Jack River That is one facet. There are lots of other facets.

The self loves nothing more that to introduce another facet to be achieved in time.Psychologically this is to maintain a certain continuity/life force for the illusion of self. 

The future is what we are now. Total change either happens now or yet doemt happen..The self loves the idea of gradual change. To reach freedom gradually is food for self. 

I am only speaking of psychological freedom(liberation). Freedom without conflict/suffering due to the divison between “the me” and “my” experiences(attachment/resistance/identification). Namean dude

Edited December 5, 2018 by Jack River

[Forestluv]

@Jack River I’m referring to after the awakening to no-self. Awakening is just the beginning.

[Jack River]

5 minutes ago, Serotoninluv said:

@Jack River I’m referring to after the awakening to no-self. Awakening is just the beginning.

Time, time, time, ..step out of the river of time dude. Ride that endless/timeless wave of freedom my man?

[Forestluv]

@Jack River I have had time awakenings. I’m trying to communicate to you it goes way beyond that. There is a lot to explore in absolute infinity. All you have written about is within Everything. Yet there is so much more to Everything. It’s Everything! 

[Jack River]

10 minutes ago, Serotoninluv said:

@Jack River I have had time awakenings. I’m trying to communicate to you it goes way beyond that. There is a lot to explore in absolute infinity. All you have written about is within Everything. Yet there is so much more to Everything. It’s Everything! 

 Time awakenings?? I’m still not certain you get what am referring to when I talk about time. There seems to be a less than holistic comprehension of time. But I don’t know my man. 

its completely useless to communicate the unknown/timeless dude. Its shit you can read out of a book/knowledge.

Plus when I hear people on the forum or anywhere for that matter try and explain such, i have heard it all before. It’s so obvious it is a regurgitation of knowledge. 

And there is a reason “it” is refered  to as the nameless. Haha let’s keep it that way..I only talk about the known/knower my brahman?

Edited December 5, 2018 by Jack River

[Jack River]

@Serotoninluv I’m not hating dog..I love you as I love myself??

Love all you ***ker’s ?

Edited December 5, 2018 by Jack River

[Forestluv]

@Jack River You’re good. You’re part of the cosmic dance. It’s fun to tumble around sometimes - especially with time

[Anton Rogachevski]

Complexity is the result of trying to explain the unexplainable - It's a good exercise for the brain. Intellectuality is a highly satisfying practice.

Awakening without trying to explain it, is like going to milk a cow without a bucket.

A simple brain needs a simple path, a complex brain needs a complex path, for the mind is like a labirinth, and the labirinth's size and difficulty is related to the mind's capabilty.

Getting awakaining is simple, but the embodiment of it requires effort. Being liberated and without purpose is the same as not being liberated. What are you going to do? Just sit in your room peacful? How is it diffrent than a heroin addict which sits in his room and looking for peace via the drug.

[Jack River]

?

what would you say is the greatest responsibility after freedom/liberation? 

To embody truth right...which means can I live a day to day life free of the image of myself which gets projected in relationship onto others. Do you realize the energy it takes to do this? 

[Jack River]

The implicitations of this are most excellent and totally necessary dudes. 

[SOUL]

I have a very complicated mind, one that loves to analyze the intricacies and nuances but that is just ego looking to justify itself through it's machinations. This doesn't change that awakening is simple, being present in the moment is simple, not attaching to the self identity is simple. The simplicity of this is not enough to satisfy the ego's craving for relevance and to justify it because it in fact empties the ego of it's importance. So it invents a myriad of complexities to keep us from being present and from severing attachment to it's content.

The complexity is involved with the techniques and methods of the 'path', all of the things that people will do to occupy the mind with tasks they associate with their 'spirituality' and 'consciousness work'. So they spend countless hours discussing these things with others, in writing and reading about them, so that they can indulge the ego's desire to traffic in self styled 'wisdom'. People become infatuated with the complexities of their path and it distracts from the simple nature of just being present.

Just because it's simple doesn't mean it's easy, it undoubtedly can be very difficult to be present and stay present in a hyperactive and challenging world. This nonsense, pardon me but it is nonsense, about explaining the unexplainable is simply the ego projecting onto a blank screen what it believes is there. 'Nothingness' and 'emptiness' has no form, no characteristics or any definitions so to be talking about 'it's this' and 'no, it's that' is just the ego attempting to polish that blank screen into a mirror so it can gaze at it's own reflection.

Liberating one from suffering is not mutually exclusive from finding a purpose in life. Although liberation is a very fine purpose in life itself and without it every other purpose leaves craving more and continues to cause suffering. So even though we may have a complex array of variables that relate to our particular life circumstances in getting what we need to survive it would be a mistake to conflate these two into one in the same. Chopping wood and carrying water is the same act that gets the same result but the fulfillment and peace in liberation is incalculable.

It has been said that these techniques and methods are merely scaffolding to build our 'temple' of our path and isn't actually what we are working on. The problem with this metaphor is that it implies we still have a need for the scaffolding for as long as we continue on the temple path. I say we aren't building the temple but dismantling it, we ae tearing down the scaffolding as we tear down the temple so that neither of them remain. We aren't writing the book of our spiritual path, we are erasing it and burning the pages. The ego cannot see the wisdom in that.

Edited December 5, 2018 by SOUL

[Hellspeed]

On 03.12.2018 at 7:10 PM, Anton Rogachevski said:

It's so obvious, yet nobody talks about it. Have you ever noticed that the most talked about spiritual teachers, are also very charismatic?

The way that wisdom is transferred is highly affected by how the person is perceived in the eyes of the reciever. And the fact that the teacher is respected, and seen as an authority is the major part of the process of delivering wisdom. Which means shockingly that the quality of wisdom is a secondary factor!

That is because we subconsciously determine if the person in front of us is a leader or a follower. When our brain perceives the teacher as a true leader, we easily accept his thoughts as reality. In other words "reality" in a tribe is dictated by the leader, and the rest of the tribe either accepts the new reality, or they get kicked out of the tribe.

That's why quotes always come with the name of the person, because if I quoted even the smartest scientist and told you: "My friend Johnny said so.", you would laugh hysterically. For the same reason religions focus on the charismatic character which said it all, the "prophet". 

The thing is we percieve many ideas as authority, even god (in the biblical sense) is a strong male who dictates rules, it's done to fool people's instinctual perception and makes it easier to control them with the ideas. Also such ideas as "society" are perceived as authority, and it makes people behave socially, in fear of being rejected by the imagined authority figure, which society represents.

Yet wisdom is still useful. And it does produce results in the end. Don't let this discourage you. It must be so because that is the systematic method of making sure wisdom is being transferred on, to bring order and peace. This also shows the importance of being a good leader, because your realtionship with the people around you affects your ability to help them. Your top most wisdom will fail miserably if you are not perceived as an authority in their eyes.

Wisdom and knowledge cannot be transferred in reality, is something you discover in yourself, and yourself being in direct connection with the whole, wich is the universe. 

[ground]

Wisdom and knowledge can be transferred. E.g. through receiving transmission from a qualified master or being directly introduced by a master. Nobody can discover anything without anyone else.

Edited December 5, 2018 by ground

[Forestluv]

@SOUL It's seems like you have had some awakenings of the simplicity of being in the present moment. From that vantage point, all the seeking, intellectualizing, theories, debates about enlightenment appear as irrelevant and a distraction. Everything is in this moment Now. It can't get any simpler than that. Once you have seen that and have embodied that the seeking energy to find it "out there" by traveling, doing retreats, conceptualizing will fade away. In the simple NOW, all the conceptualization, theory, debate etc. just IS. It's just happening in the Now.  It's ALL just ISness. That is the simplicity. Conceptualizing about how conceptualizing is a problem is itself conceptualizing! In the simplicity, there is no problem - it ALL just IS. The mind needs to ADD complexity to view it as a problem. The simple ISness has ZERO problem with any spiritual path, complexity or spiritual theories. ALL of that simply IS. It's all the same ISness as a duck, leaf, cloud etc. It all simply IS.

Yet, this is extremely unpalatable to the mind. If this is true, we would just be sitting around in silence ISing. Part of my ego backlash here was getting upset with all this talk about spiritual paths, spiritual concepts, insights etc. I spent over 20yrs. on this so-called "spiritual path", thousands of hours on the meditation cushion, spiritual books, dharma talks, retreats etc. And know I find out it was all unnecessary bullshit? That the real truth is simply being right Now and all that is happening right Now? For a little while, my ego was pissed it wasted all that time and was taken as a sucker. I then challenged this so-called "spiritual path" and all the conceptualizing and tried to tell people it's all unnecessary B.S. We are always zero steps from enlightenment - it is always present right here and Now.

Then I started becoming aware that all the spiritual path nonsense can be a distraction to awakening, yet it is also within the awakened state. It is the simple ISness of Now - just like everything. It's all one giant Everything. For a while, there was no more seeking energy. It felt like their was awakening to truth, yet there was still this sense of being unsettled. With time, a new energy arose. It was not the previous seeking energy. It was arising from a different source. Then I realized this isn't The End. In a sense it was the end, in another sense it wasn't the end. Then, all the spiritual "B.S." was a distraction. I started seeing flowers within the field of bullshit. I had never seen these spiritual flowers before and a sense of love, appreciation, wonder, gratitude began to arise - as well as new deeper manifestations of knowing and being. 

[tsuki]

@SOUL Sigh, still discussing the futility of discussion?

Does this bring about clarity about what shadow is?

[SOUL]

@Serotoninluv Yes, it seems you are saying what I have been talking about all along.

The path only is problematic is it distracts from being present in the moment, presence of now, awakened ISness. I never said the complexity is wrong or bad, just that it can and often distracts from being present now in awakened ISness. That it becomes an addiction of the ego, a self serving fixation on the complexities, the 'spiritual ego' I guess it is also called.

So many are consumed with walking the complicated path but never noticing the flowers because of the bullshit. Stop and smell the flowers....even though the field stinks of bullshit and still be at peace with it all. Haha

Edited December 5, 2018 by SOUL