How is wisdom transferred?

[Jack River]

1 minute ago, Anton Rogachevski said:

This reoccurring point of "who talks from direct experience or not." is getting old

I agree dude. 

2 minutes ago, Anton Rogachevski said:

If I'm too concerned with it, I could miss some of the most important insights into my own delusions. By listening carefully I can be a student and every other person is my teacher, whether he's aware or not. Anyway there's no way of knowing if a person had it or hadn't seen any "direct experiences". 

Well said dude. I totlay feel ya.?

[Jack River]

@Anton Rogachevski observation of ourselves in relationship is the teacher. 

[Anton Rogachevski]

21 minutes ago, Jack River said:

@Anton Rogachevski observation of ourselves in relationship is the teacher. 

It takes two to form a relationship, but to truly learn, the only "relationship" to concern yourself with - is with yourself, which is the only one that exists anyway.

Edited December 4, 2018 by Anton Rogachevski

[SOUL]

Wisdom isn't transferred, wisdom is something that is cultivated from experience, information, experimentation, observation and for us as aware self conscious beings, contemplation.

Edited December 4, 2018 by SOUL

[Jack River]

8 minutes ago, Anton Rogachevski said:

but to truly learn, the only "relationship" to concern yourself with is with yourself

To understand yourself as the entity that imposes images on itself and thefore others. Fosho. 

[Anton Rogachevski]

7 minutes ago, SOUL said:

Wisdom isn't transferred, wisdom is something that is cultivated from experience, information, experimentation, observation and for us as aware self conscious beings, contemplation.

Let's have a little thought exercise - Imagine that a person is born in an imaginary country where no such ideas exist: experience, information, experimentation, observation, contemplation, spirituality. What would he do to be wise?

[Jack River]

As I see it, Wisdom (intelligence) comes in the ability to observe without evaluating.

Wisdom is not the result of accumulation(experience/knowledge) but is an expression of holistic understanding/comprehension of thoughts/reality’s nature. Wisdom comes in seeing what-is without distortion of thought/the mechanical self (time) distorting what-is. 

Edited December 4, 2018 by Jack River

[Forestluv]

11 minutes ago, Anton Rogachevski said:

Let's have a little thought exercise - Imagine that a person is born in an imaginary country where no such ideas exist: experience, information, experimentation, observation, contemplation, spirituality. What would he do to be wise?

I traveled to this country while in a sensory deprivation tank. I went back to the womb prior to all experience, information, experimentation, observation, contemplation and spirituality. It was very different than anything I've ever experienced. Psychedelics can also bring a person to this country.

[SOUL]

4 minutes ago, Anton Rogachevski said:

Let's have a little thought exercise - Imagine that a person is born in an imaginary country where no such ideas exist: experience, information, experimentation, observation, contemplation, spirituality. What would he do to be wise?

We don't have to imagine it, it exists in reality without the use of ideas. How does an animal gain their 'wisdom'? By using all of those.... well, maybe not contemplation, but maybe they do.

[Anton Rogachevski]

2 minutes ago, SOUL said:

We don't have to imagine it, it exists in reality without the use of ideas. How does an animal gain their 'wisdom'? By using all of those.... well, maybe not contemplation, but maybe they do.

You tell me that all wisdom is self-produced, yet you use language and terms which you didn't produce, you have read many books you haven't written, then how can you still claim to have produced all your wisdom?

[SOUL]

5 minutes ago, Serotoninluv said:

I traveled to this country while in a sensory deprivation tank. I went back to the womb prior to all experience, information, experimentation, observation, contemplation and spirituality. It was very different than anything I've ever experienced.

Sensory deprivation isn't the same thing as not ever had sensory input. Removing something completely that is typically always present then returning to the typical sensory state provides a different experience than never having it... ever.

[SOUL]

30 minutes ago, Anton Rogachevski said:

You tell me that all wisdom is self-produced, yet you use language and terms which you didn't produce, you have read many books you haven't written, then how can you still claim to have produced all your wisdom?

Did I say "self produced"? Nope.

You just showed how wisdom can't be transferred because the information I wrote wasn't cultivated into it. Contemplate that.

Oh... and I didn't read any "books" on this let alone many.

Edited December 4, 2018 by SOUL

[Forestluv]

6 minutes ago, SOUL said:

Sensory deprivation isn't the same thing as not ever had sensory input. Removing something completely that is typically always present then returning to the typical sensory state provides a different experience than never having it... ever.

The place I traveled to was prior to all that. There was being-ness that had never had any experience, information, experimentation, observation, contemplation, spirituality. 

When the "I" returned, the mind will want to recontextualize it as an "experience". Yet, there is a being-ness prior to that. I am aware of my mind trying to contextualize the uncontextualizable.

[SOUL]

22 minutes ago, Serotoninluv said:

The place I traveled to was prior to all that. There was being-ness that had never had any experience, information, experimentation, observation, contemplation, spirituality. 

When the "I" returned, the mind will want to recontextualize it as an "experience". Yet, there is a being-ness prior to that. I am aware of my mind trying to contextualize the uncontextualizable.

Again I say, that depriving senses after having senses then returning to senses is not the same thing as never having senses.... ever.

Even if you did "travel" to a "prior" you say none of those existed as you suggest you did it still isn't the same as those never having existed ... so, did you really experience the non-experience of unsensory existence? Maybe so....or it could also be a state that is so deprived of the previous sensory input it only appears to be it but regardless it isn't the same thing as the eternal absolute of non-experience unsensory existence.

Oh.... no need to 'travel' or use a tank.... it's ever present, just awaken to it.

Edited December 4, 2018 by SOUL

[Forestluv]

7 minutes ago, SOUL said:

Again I say, that depriving senses after having senses then returning to senses is not the same thing as never having senses.... ever.

Of course. The mind will contextualize when returning. That is not what I am referring to. I'm referring to something prior to contextualization. Something closer to the null void.

Conceptualizing about it is fun and can help provide a framework for the mind, yet it aint it.

7 minutes ago, SOUL said:

no need to 'travel' or use a tank.... it's ever present, just awaken to it.

Indeed. Yet that presence can be difficult for a conditioned mind to become aware of. Telling an ego "Just awaken" is like telling an alcoholic "Just stop drinking".

Things like meditation, SD tanks, psychedelics, self inquiry can be useful tools.

 

[Anton Rogachevski]

32 minutes ago, SOUL said:

Did I say "self produced"? Nope.

You just showed how wisdom can't be transferred because the information I wrote wasn't cultivated into it. Contemplate that.

Oh... and I didn't read any "books" on this let alone many.

Meanwhile please contemplate: "Who's cultivating wisdom?""Who is contemplating, observing and collecting information?"

[Jack River]

To obseve without evaluating (where wisdom arises) seems to lead to the healdessness(no-experience) that people have refered to. Although this doesn’t seem to come into being when there is any attempt to exclude/manipulate/choose as the chooser though. 

We dont need a tank to do that though. Actually it can be seen that if we need to exclude the senses in order to arive at any specific state, then that is still movement of self subtly controlling “its” experience. Which implicitly limits what-is to past experience as the experiencer(movement of the past). 

And that may explain why after that particular experience ended we would be back in the field of time/self after. To exclude any aspects of experience is an action/projection of past experience/knowledge/memory as the self/time. This imlies that non-experience was born of past experience. So maybe it was actually an experience as the experiencer. 

And that wisdom which can be followed by headlessness doesn’t seem to involve experience/knowledge (accumulation/cultivation) of thought at all, But actually an ending of it. An ending to seeing through the veil of images(thought/the past). 

To obseve what-is without evaluation/analysis is where wisdom is born. This seems to imply also no reaction of selfs emotion/thought cycle being fed(psychological continuity of the self) or divided action. 

That movement of self/time seems to be where this accumulation(personal experience/knowledge/memory) seems to get projected as a “new” experience. That is what seems to prevent the head from falling off(ending of experience). 

Edited December 4, 2018 by Jack River

[SOUL]

3 minutes ago, Anton Rogachevski said:

Meanwhile please contemplate: "Who's cultivating wisdom?""Who is contemplating, observing and collecting information?"

Who is asking how is wisdom transferred from who to who? WHO!

[purerogue]

1 minute ago, SOUL said:

Who is asking how is wisdom transferred from who to who? WHO!

Funny right, when you think you got away from ego , you still do not realize that you are stuck in ego!

[SOUL]

14 minutes ago, Serotoninluv said:

Of course. The mind will contextualize when returning. That is not what I am referring to. I'm referring to something prior to contextualization. Something closer to the null void.

Conceptualizing about it is fun and can help provide a framework for the mind, yet it aint it.

Indeed. Yet that presence can be difficult for a conditioned mind to become aware of. Telling an ego "Just awaken" is like telling an alcoholic "Just stop drinking".

Things like meditation, SD tanks, psychedelics, self inquiry can be useful tools.

 

....and all of it is made aware through the manifest experience of being, we don't have the benefit of being aware of it in the eternal absolute of unmanifest non-experience. That bell cannot be unrung.