How is wisdom transferred?

[Anton Rogachevski]

It's so obvious, yet nobody talks about it. Have you ever noticed that the most talked about spiritual teachers, are also very charismatic?

The way that wisdom is transferred is highly affected by how the person is perceived in the eyes of the reciever. And the fact that the teacher is respected, and seen as an authority is the major part of the process of delivering wisdom. Which means shockingly that the quality of wisdom is a secondary factor!

That is because we subconsciously determine if the person in front of us is a leader or a follower. When our brain perceives the teacher as a true leader, we easily accept his thoughts as reality. In other words "reality" in a tribe is dictated by the leader, and the rest of the tribe either accepts the new reality, or they get kicked out of the tribe.

That's why quotes always come with the name of the person, because if I quoted even the smartest scientist and told you: "My friend Johnny said so.", you would laugh hysterically. For the same reason religions focus on the charismatic character which said it all, the "prophet". 

The thing is we percieve many ideas as authority, even god (in the biblical sense) is a strong male who dictates rules, it's done to fool people's instinctual perception and makes it easier to control them with the ideas. Also such ideas as "society" are perceived as authority, and it makes people behave socially, in fear of being rejected by the imagined authority figure, which society represents.

Yet wisdom is still useful. And it does produce results in the end. Don't let this discourage you. It must be so because that is the systematic method of making sure wisdom is being transferred on, to bring order and peace. This also shows the importance of being a good leader, because your realtionship with the people around you affects your ability to help them. Your top most wisdom will fail miserably if you are not perceived as an authority in their eyes.

Edited December 3, 2018 by Anton Rogachevski

[purerogue]

Have you tried to listen , listen to words, not focus on who is saying them,try to relate them to your current level of development, not to person. 

[Forestluv]

The mind loves to put up defenses and protect itself - it's beliefs, identity etc. An experienced, knowledgeable teacher can help relax the perceiver's mind and resistance. Yet, the mind needs to be open and willing to let go of assumptions and pre-judgement to explore new avenues. To a closed conditioned mind, an enlightened master may look like a woo-woo bullshitter trying to take advantage of people.

When the student is ready, the teacher appears. . . 

Once there is sufficient direct experience integrated with conceptual knowledge, an intuitive resonance will arise between student and teacher.

[purerogue]

You can do this with literally anything , music, people  you interact with, things you see, etc, focus on what it is to you in relation, there is knowledge everywhere, you just do not see it, you ignore it. 

You can also have fun having it, like listen to this song 

I can put it in relation to me and my ego  and it gets funny to me. 

Edited December 3, 2018 by purerogue

[Anton Rogachevski]

27 minutes ago, Serotoninluv said:

The mind loves to put up defenses and protect itself - it's beliefs, identity etc. An experienced, knowledgeable teacher can help relax the perceiver's mind and resistance. Yet, the mind needs to be open and willing to let go of assumptions and pre-judgement to explore new avenues. To a closed conditioned mind, an enlightened master may look like a woo-woo bullshitter trying to take advantage of people.

When the student is ready, the teacher appears. . . 

Once there is sufficient direct experience integrated with conceptual knowledge, an intuitive resonance will arise between student and teacher.

This is very true. The more deeply I go, the more I can learn from anyone around me. I see them as teachers, and I'm forever a disciple.

Also If people can be fooled by an authority it means they should be. (i guess all the stages till yellow perceive a sort of authority and follow.) 

[Forestluv]

24 minutes ago, Anton Rogachevski said:

This is very true. The more deeply I go, the more I can learn from anyone around me. I see them as teachers, and I'm forever a disciple.

Also If people can be fooled by an authority it means they should be. (i guess all the stages till yellow perceive a sort of authority and follow.) 

Yep. I can tell almost immediately if someone has had direct experience with nonduality, just by the way they try to explain the unexplainable. Those with only intellectual knowledge and no direct experience stick out like a sore thumb.

[purerogue]

24 minutes ago, Serotoninluv said:

Yep. I can tell almost immediately if someone has had direct experience with nonduality, just by the way they try to explain the unexplainable. Those with only intellectual knowledge and no direct experience stick out like a sore thumb.

Experience is still just a thought, belief. 

[Anton Rogachevski]

8 hours ago, purerogue said:

Experience is still just a thought, belief. 

Experience is not a thought, but what you wrote is.

 

9 hours ago, Serotoninluv said:

Yep. I can tell almost immediately if someone has had direct experience with nonduality, just by the way they try to explain the unexplainable. Those with only intellectual knowledge and no direct experience stick out like a sore thumb.

Yep, it's like a non-dual religious person, rehearsing the wise phrase his guru told him, and angrily argues about some word.

[ground]

14 hours ago, purerogue said:

Have you tried to listen , listen to words, not focus on who is saying them,try to relate them to your current level of development, not to person. 

Even the effect of words is kind of magic. Why? Since words are inherently without meaning. One may hear sounds or see forms/concatenation of characters and the mind synthesizes meaning. The meaning synthesized by the hearer's/reader's mind does not necessarily correspond to the meaning that arose in the speaker's/writer's mind and that he tried to express through linguistic sounds/forms - actually often it is quite different.

Edited December 4, 2018 by ground

[tsuki]

@Anton Rogachevski In the OP, you described how belief is transferred, not wisdom.
Wisdom is the ability to live a good life. It cannot be taught by a teacher.
The only way to become wise is to mindfully suffer and recognize its roots.

Sometimes, a presence of a wise person may inspire another to introspect by various tricks (upaya), but that does not mean that the student was taught.

 

EDIT: What I wrote is just hilarious given my signature .

Edited December 4, 2018 by tsuki

[Nahm]

By veiling then rediscovering yourself. ❤️

[Anton Rogachevski]

6 hours ago, tsuki said:

@Anton Rogachevski In the OP, you described how belief is transferred, not wisdom.
Wisdom is the ability to live a good life. It cannot be taught by a teacher.
The only way to become wise is to mindfully suffer and recognize its roots.

Sometimes, a presence of a wise person may inspire another to introspect by various tricks (upaya), but that does not mean that the student was taught.

 

EDIT: What I wrote is just hilarious given my signature .

 

6 hours ago, Nahm said:

By veiling then rediscovering yourself. ❤️

 

So it really does boil down to the receiver's openness and investment, which means that if such a dynamic of lack of trust and respect is occurring, there's nothing to do but forfeit.

Edited December 4, 2018 by Anton Rogachevski

[Nahm]

18 minutes ago, Anton Rogachevski said:

 

 

So it really does boil down to the receiver's openness and investment, which means that if such a dynamic is occurring, theres nothing to do but forfeit.

Could you elaborate on that some more?

[Forestluv]

20 hours ago, purerogue said:

Experience is still just a thought, belief. 

Good point. I try to be mindful if there is attachment and identification to experiences and beliefs. If so, can I let go of my identication with the experience? I’d sprinkle a little neti neti dust on it.

[Anton Rogachevski]

 

1 hour ago, Nahm said:

Could you elaborate on that some more?

What I meant to say was, when met with a closed person there's really nothing to do. And the quicker I can let go of that is healthier for both of us.

Yet I'm still puzzeled at the role of social dynamics and status perception, and how it affects the ability to recieve any useful knowlage at all.

Edited December 4, 2018 by Anton Rogachevski

[purerogue]

I do not want to go into this, it is like talking with wall , they will take everything they are told as granted from Enlightenment perspective, when it is nothing more then experience.

[Flammable]

Mooji once said that speaking has two factors - communication and vibration. Openness to both is essential. 

[Jack River]

44 minutes ago, purerogue said:

I do not want to go into this, it is like talking with wall , they will take everything they are told as granted from Enlightenment perspective, when it is nothing more then experience.

If a person never acquired any knowledge/past experience then what would “direct experience” be? 

 

[tsuki]

1 hour ago, Anton Rogachevski said:

What I meant to say was, when met with a closed person there's really nothing to do.

Let me play some word-games with you: is there anything to do when you meet an open person?
Is enlightening people your goal?

Edited December 4, 2018 by tsuki

[Anton Rogachevski]

35 minutes ago, tsuki said:

Let me play some word-games with you: is there anything to do when you meet an open person?
Is enlightening people your goal?

When I meet an open minded person I can talk about advanced topics, question things that would trigger most people, get very deep, and even gain wisdom from him. When two brains are on the same frequency, they integrate into a "Brain Storm" dynamic - On such a communication level both brains are basically like a wet sponge and dry sponge put together. The wet one isn't better by any means, it's just that it was immersed in water for longer. Enlightening people can't be a goal of mine, and it's not most of the time (obviously I'm not perfect at this.), but it's the inevitable result of such an interaction - One could say it's gods doing. Any intention or will of mine are a disturbance in the force of god's will.

A lot of the time I like to talk about ideas and get feedback, which I learn a lot from, like here on the forum. My only job is to listen quietly and be aware.

 

1 hour ago, Jack River said:

If a person never acquired any knowledge/past experience then what would “direct experience” be? 

 

This reoccurring point of "who talks from direct experience or not." is getting old. If I'm too concerned with it, I could miss some of the most important insights into my own delusions. By listening carefully I can be a student and every other person is my teacher, whether he's aware or not. Anyway there's no way of knowing if a person had or hadn't seen any "direct experiences". 

 

1 hour ago, Flammable said:

Mooji once said that speaking has two factors - communication and vibration. Openness to both is essential. 

Exactly. A person of high charisma knows how to speak properly and how to relate to people so that he's perceived as a leader, and thus gain the respect and openness of his followers. Mooji is very good at this.

Edited December 4, 2018 by Anton Rogachevski