Real Growth Vs Fake

[Algi]

Realised lately that all this clever videos and material I watch has paradox of having bigger ego,  which is exactly opposite what we are trying to do.... How do I seek knowledge without being arrogant or showing off? How do you self actualise without any external motivation like because you love your partner. Is it all through meditation and raising awareness? Is it charity? Sometimes I am showing off them too?

[SkyPanther]

1 hour ago, Algi said:

Realised lately that all this clever videos and material I watch has paradox of having bigger ego,  which is exactly opposite what we are trying to do.... How do I seek knowledge without being arrogant or showing off? How do you self actualise without any external motivation like because you love your partner. Is it all through meditation and raising awareness? Is it charity? Sometimes I am showing off them too?

Meditation, mindfulness, and applying the right antidotes to egoic delusions.

Edited April 9, 2016 by SkyPanther

[Nic]

Happened the same to me years ago, hard and painful to realize it, but this is part of the process. I would lie if would say that It is not a problem anymore. To say the contrary would mean that I don't have an ego anymore, which is not the case.

This realization of self deception, actually can make you feel humble and notice that this work is a lot harder, more subtle and longer than you can ever imagine. It will never stop. If you don't hunt your ego down, it will hunt you as long as you are not enlightened. You are still identifying with the voice inside, this is the problem even though you tell everybody how to and what it is all about to free yourself from ego.

And it is a problem when you are trying to make a point. You will identify with what you think. This is a BIG problem!!! This is the reason why I'm thinking to force myself of leaving the forum for a while, I'm starting to have much more mind chatter than before, my ego loves it though. This is where I see the problematic paradigm for seeking peace of mind. 

Will this forum and the chase for enlightenment in general create more or less mind chatter, more or less identification with your thoughts, this is what you have to pay attention to.

Take care

Edited April 9, 2016 by Nic

[Truth]

It's removing the need for external validation and success.

you might still be chasing the same desires but, with a truly healthy mindset.  --> Healthy authentic motivation instead of neurotic, egoic, needy motivation which is cause for a lot of pointless pain and suffering.

 

Edited April 9, 2016 by Truth

[Algi]

12 hours ago, Nic said:

Happened the same to me years ago, hard and painful to realize it, but this is part of the process. I would lie if would say that It is not a problem anymore. To say the contrary would mean that I don't have an ego anymore, which is not the case.

This realization of self deception, actually can make you feel humble and notice that this work is a lot harder, more subtle and longer than you can ever imagine. It will never stop. If you don't hunt your ego down, it will hunt you as long as you are not enlightened. You are still identifying with the voice inside, this is the problem even though you tell everybody how to and what it is all about to free yourself from ego.

And it is a problem when you are trying to make a point. You will identify with what you think. This is a BIG problem!!! This is the reason why I'm thinking to force myself of leaving the forum for a while, I'm starting to have much more mind chatter than before, my ego loves it though. This is where I see the problematic paradigm for seeking peace of mind. 

Will this forum and the chase for enlightenment in general create more or less mind chatter, more or less identification with your thoughts, this is what you have to pay attention to.

Take care

 

[Algi]

@Nic Thank you Nic for sharing that, I can feel how much it would take to say my ego loves even this forum. It is so subtle but so strong and neurotic. I am a firm bielieve that the only way to get different results it's to change your approach like Tony Robbins says. 

[Algi]

@SkyPanther OK do you have any similar problems that you used the the right antidotes to the ego? Like a good example, if you don't mind.

[SkyPanther]

11 minutes ago, Algi said:

@SkyPanther OK do you have any similar problems that you used the the right antidotes to the ego? Like a good example, if you don't mind.

It really depends on the problem. If it's hate or anger, the antidote is practicing Lovingkindeness meditation.

If it's greed, practice altruism, or letting things go. Basically first find the root of the problem, and than practice it's opposite.

Wisdom plays into it as well, because by uncovering the root of the cause of the problem you can easily spot it if you are being mindful in everyday life. 

If you suppress the symptoms of the root, it will just manifest as something else. Find the cause, and release it, or diminish it, and the symptoms will fade by themselves. 

 

Edited April 10, 2016 by SkyPanther

[Algi]

@SkyPanther thank you, is it so simple what you said and obvious but by no means easy to practice consistently. Also I like the idea of using pain to change and turn into reward from a good motivation speaker Eric Thomas

[Nic]

@Algi

I find myself in the following situation:

One of my brothers and his wife are sailing round the globe since 8 years, on their way from New Caledonia to Australia at this very moment. I told him briefly about the no self and the no freewill concept over skype the other day. They both just went outrageous... My brother can't control himself when emotions are involved... (I made him at least realize that...) he is the kind of guy who is really involved in ecology and want to change the world. He plans now to come back to Europe and I can see myself already having big conversations about it, but live, which means he is constantly going to push my buttons (he knows them by heart), my ego, by making fun out of me and interrupting me. I of course told him to look at Leo's video, but he didn't watch any of them.

On one side, I see that his huge ego is just going to be full of the best arguments to make sure that I' m wrong in his mind and he'll deceive himself.

On the other side, he'll notice that their might be some truth to it and I'll be winning the argumentation.

In both outcomes, I can see from here my ego growing.

The first outcome, I'll feel sadness, for him and his wife. Because I really love him and I would like him to see the world in my eyes so he can be released of all this political non sens he is involved with, always preaching, and seeking for solutions, know it all kind of guy, (some girls told me that same claim towards me years ago, I'm probably not much better than him, still I like to believe that I'm improving, and I always take into consideration that I'm could be wrong...)

The second outcome: I'll be very proud to make my brother change his mind and realize something about himself that he will later attribute to his own discovery as he always does haha...

The thing is and the truth is that my clinging to the story of the path to enlightenment is not better that his clinging to a political party. 

As much as I want to let go, I feel the resistance to what is in me, the clinging of telling the story, at least to my loved ones, the need for argumentation. This is a real blockage I have to learn to let go of for my personal growth.

I have these lessons somewhere in the back of my mind, and in the back of my self development files on my computer, also in the back of my bookshelves ... but my ego in the middle tells me not to look at them and to write this post instead... 

I'm halfway there. I've been there already years ago. Everything comes into place, I accept where I Am. Everything is fine as it is. I'm honest with myself and I know that the problem comes from listening and clinging to the voice. The more I talk about it, the more I write about it, the more I can see and recognize the lies in the voice, the more I see the urge of letting go, in that case the forum can be a therapy as well.... but

Will it be enough to let go of it all? Only time will tell!

Take care!

 

Edited April 10, 2016 by Nic

[Algi]

@Nic It sounds like your really want to help your brother to see between the lines which is good. I do the same, I can talk the knowledge really well without knowing it or practice what I preach. In Islam it says hypocrasy is the worst kind of sin, which I am fully aware of how judgemental and hypocrite I am lately. Why do you want to chase enlightenment? Do you think it is possible to live a live with a healthy mindset without going for enlightenment? The only reason I looked into it is because I wanted to get rid of my neediness and attachment, neurotic behaviours, once I feel I am no longer neurotic for a week I look into places where my ego will be glorified. Probably an understatement so say the least. Thanks for sharing, made me think more deeply about my own ego.

[Algi]

@NicI am not a big writer, we can Skype if you a free. 

[oschi]

Years ago my parents told me that playing video games is stupid and I shouldn't focus too much on it. Turns out that they were right. But it doesn't matter that they were right. It matters that I learned the lesson from the inside. 

When I watch Leo's videos, I feel some kind of good feeling. I learn techniques to become a better version of myself. Still I didn't manage to create big results in the last 12 months. Because I didn't internalize them. I don't even feel any better than before. It feels like this whole journey is just a freakin charade. Real growth is nurtured by real passion. And I don't have real passion for it at this moment. I just want to let go of any concept that is out there and free my mind. And this mind game actually helps me to grow. From this point I will recall some ideas that Leo was talking about and probably I will internalize them, because I opened up. Also because my ego allowed some input fom the back door without realizing it. 

I also remember the time when I learned riding the bicycle. My father was holding the bike from the back. I needed to know that he was helping. So I looked back to see if he is still there. Whenever he stopped helping me I panicked and fell down or stopped. Then in one moment I was just crying there. Totally opening up to the situation. Showing that I am not good enough for it. In this moment of maximal crying I just drove home on my bicycle without any help. My ego opened up and in this moment the idea was planted in my brain.  "Just do it. There is no other way. You can stop at this very moment or you can go further to get to the point where you grow"

[Algi]

@oschi GREAT! I can relate to what you said about not having passion right now, sometimes I do things like charity work and judge other people to stroke my ego; telling my self how advanced I am on human psyche stage model. I am envious of your encouraging dad who tried to show you the way of life, that is the person I would like to be in a near future. Regards to Leo's videos, I know exactly what you mean, I feel like I internalised 5% and that is being generous on myself the rest of knowledge I picked up was not practised and if anything did oppoisite. Thank you for sharing your story!:))

[Nic]

3 hours ago, Algi said:

@NicWhy do you want to chase enlightenment?

Do you think it is possible to live a live with a healthy mindset without going for enlightenment? 

My pleasure, I'm not into making contacts here, I'm more on the opposite side, making less contact... so, I'm sorry, I'm not into skyping, I hope you understand and I'm a big writer, it makes me believe in my own bullshit even more you see?

- I personally don't chase enlightenment. I chase lasting happiness through self awareness. Enlightenment is in my view like getting old, in the sens that you become it, you don't choose to become it. I've looked for truth & happiness not enlightenment. I had recently the chance of being able to taste what enlightenment is like through that mindset, and I'm still not looking for it. I got interested in it after the experiences, this is why I believe I'm here I guess, but on the forum, it feels like it's a new religion, a concept or a fashion just because in every second post there is this word "enlightenment" in it...  I'm not saying it is bad and I find it normal for people to have questions about it so they don't feel like they do this all for nothing.

- Yes I think it is possible to live with a healthy mindset with or without looking for enlightenment. What is important in my opinion is the amount of love you express, as you are what you express, nothing more, nothing less. This realization made all the difference for me. I found out that my happiness was directly related to the amount of love I expressed, that the reasons of why I didn't express love in the first place was because of my mind finding reasons not to do so. I learned from then that the voice lives with fear and speaks lies based in fear and that I was falsely identifying with the voice, that it was just a voice, not my voice, that I didn't question before biting into his stories.

I hope it helps!

Take care!

Edited April 10, 2016 by Nic

[SkyPanther]

5 hours ago, Algi said:

@SkyPanther thank you, is it so simple what you said and obvious but by no means easy to practice consistently. Also I like the idea of using pain to change and turn into reward from a good motivation speaker Eric Thomas

You do not need to be perfect. Once you can still the mind via meditation for longer than a few seconds, your focus and concentration is good enough to be used as an overlay on your everyday action.

You don't need to suppress anything. But ask yourself what the motivation is behind an action. Is it out of anger? Is it greed? Is it some misunderstanding? If you can see it's not "good" find the trigger that brought up that reaction, and dissect it. 

At first you might only spot it a few times, but if you keep meditating, keep mindfulness going, you will improve.

Remember that perfection is not a possibility in conditioned existence, we are dealing with approximations with all of our concepts, so do not beat yourself up for not being perfect, or even good.  The secret is not giving up. 

Edited April 10, 2016 by SkyPanther

[Nic]

2 hours ago, SkyPanther said:

If you can see it's not "good" find the trigger that brought up that reaction, and dissect it. 

Bravo, I'd just add:  in there you can see the lies that precedes the fear based reaction. Go deep and Make a habit out of it!

[SkyPanther]

6 minutes ago, Nic said:

Bravo, I'd just add:  in there you can see the lies that precedes the fear based reaction. Go deep and Make a habit out of it!

Yeap, usually you will have some form of story about why you are doing something. Ignore it.  The story is personal, and the ego asserting its point of view.

It's an excuse to continue doing what you have been doing.

[Algi]

@Nic @SkyPantherThanks guys, I have little experience in what you call" dissect a trigger" but I can see it working and I like the idea of antidote to the trigger. Mindfulness and meditation may help you spot the trigger but it isn't a direct method of solution. 

[Nic]

(I'm going to copy and paste this post in the section for reviewing books and programs, of the specific spiritual course I took, I guess it is where it really belongs, this post wasn't supposed to be that long and precise, I got lost in the voice again, I'll put the link to the review at the bottom of the post.)

@Algi In my case meditation helped not so much, it was a good bonus, for me it was mostly emotions watching thank to the course I did. Because meditation helped me see and realize that ideas are out of my control, but I rarely have emotions when I meditate. Emotions are for me what makes ideas feel "real". I'm not saying that one should not meditate! Please do it as much as possible!

But I believe this is the way for me to mental sanity, real growth, long lasting happiness and this procedure gives me equanimity. I question the whole process of having emotions. This is what I would call wisdom and it is actually hard work, not to jump into an emotion and to do this for as long as it becomes a new way of life, to be an emotion hunter as my spiritual master would say. This is being self aware. This whole process detaches me from the lies of the voice and the voice itself, from the emotions that comes from being identified with it. 

I hope this can help someone to get rid of the daily drama he/she is living! You can change the dialogue at will for yourself, if you are being judgmental on yourself, this is of course only an exemple.

 

So I dive into the thinking/emotional process:

When I notice that feel any emotions (mostly bad of course, they are less pleasant...), I go and ask:

 

-Hey, what do I feel now exactly? Pain, anger/ joy, pride

- What created that feeling ? Ok, my thoughts. 

-What Am I thinking? He is so cool/a big asshole.

-What else Am I thinking, it's not only this, you know there's something hidden? That I'm not as good/better than as him or her.

-In what tone was I saying that? Accusing, judging and/or being victim, pity....

-What was hidden underneath that idea or that word? That I'm not worth being loved, that I'm worth being loved.

-How come did I make the shortcut to all this without noticing it in the first place? Because I was unconscious of the whole process, it happened so quick.

-What can I do now with that feeling I'm aware of? Let go of it.

-Why would you let go of it? Because I don't feel good/ why not? (If I feel good, I say, I didn't create this feeling on purpose did I)

-How can I let go of it? By changing perspective! Of course!!!!  I forgot I can change perspective, there is always at least one another perspective.

-What kind of perspective? Well I can for exemple choose the most simple perpective of all, the GRATITUDE perspective!

-Fuck off, not again!? Yeah right mate, Gratitude, you know they are thousand things to be grateful for right now, my breathing, my body, my job, my clothes, my family and friends and so many things I can't even see right now because I'm blind and emotional, but this guy who you think now is an asshole also just gave you a wicked exercise to be mindful... so be thankful!!!! Say thank you!!! Come on!

-Thank you! No sincerely, do not only say thank you, send him your gratitude, and feel the gratitude yourself, you will feel the emotion , not him, but you. He only did the best he could in his situation, he could be your own dad/brother or even yourself. Your dad/brother is not the most mindful guy either?! Yourself are not always aware as well... yeaaah sure!

-Will I care in ten years from now? Of course not, I'll laugh about it, I'll be actually thankful to have learn something! 

-So why should I care now? I don't really know as I remember that story of the zen master, the farmer and his son that found a horse, and that story makes a lot of sense to me.

-So you can forgive him right? I guess I could, fogginess does make me feel good, it would be the right choice for sure. There is not much sens in clinging to anger anyway, it only stresses me out, I only punish myself. If I can't do that, I just react unconsciously to an unconscious person. I want to learn something from it.

OH YES, so that you'll be better than him right?  Hmmm, sounds tempting but not really, I fell in that trap before... no, just because it feels good doing so. I'm not better than anyone you know. That would be judging, this is what I actually try to avoid here you little cheeky scamp, he he!

- There is no sens in judging anything anyway, the voice I hear is just playing with me. Thank you voice for giving me notice of your opinion but I don't see why I should refrain from expressing love/compassion right now, as expressing love/compassion is making me feel good actually. Love doesn't need any reason to be expressed, it only needs reasons not to be expressed. Try to rationalize love anyway... Rationality doesn't make me happy, it refrains me from being happy, like I could experienced it in the past. You made me loose my temper more than once and I've hurt people as well remember? By biting into your lies based in fear, you got me into depression some time ago remember? This was very painful, I had to get myself out of this, now I don't trust you anymore like you were the master of my life. Thank you for your advice. I'll listen to you when I need you. You are my friend, and you did your best, you did exactly what you were designed to do. Thank you from the bottom of my heart, See, it does you good as well when you feel this love, you're going quiet... Take care my friend, see you soon!

-Hmmmm, hmmmmmm....

 

The internal discussion I have with myself usually ends there, otherwise I just start it all over again if the pain I feel remains. After a few seconds comes the next idea again of course, will I bite into it is another question. When the emotion is there, I can see that I did bite into it! The more you do it, the quicker the change in emotion will get. But after a while of practice, you can anticipate what the voice would like to say and you know in advance it doesn't make sens. The whole process slows down, you see very clearly all the reasons, the lies flying around in your head like kids doing a ball game. And there comes the higher self, saying "wow wow wow, kids, stop playing around will you! Cheers!" and that's it. This happens when all the above discussion gets automatic. One day you might even don't need to say a thing anymore. The kids sit quietly.... They are waiting for you to go on holiday! Don't go for too long like I did! 

Even though it might sound quiet sick, that some might think I could need to see a doctor for having so much internal dialogue, those people don't realize they have internal dialogue because they identify with the voice all the time, the biggest mistake to do on the spiritual path.
 

If you combine this whole procedure with meditation, I guaranty that you will find peace. It works even better with meditation, you will get there faster.

I wish you all a very peaceful mind!

 

To the review of the course, sorry for the folks that people see me repeating myself but there are people who missed it and newbies also :