NutritionFacts.org (Michael Greger)

[SgtPepper]

19 minutes ago, Shiva said:

Such as? I haven't eaten meat in 5 years and my blood values have barely changed. They are neither better nor worse, only blood pressure overall went down and B vitamins are lower, but still good.

does that include fish and mussels?

Here is a list from the video I posted before.

and an online source:

https://www.healthline.com/nutrition/7-nutrients-you-cant-get-from-plants#section2

your experience in blood values is exactly why I don't believe in the anti-nutrients rhetoric. 

[Space]

@AMS You seem like a fairly level headed carnivore dieter. I've recently reintroduced meat back into my diet after being vegan for a fairly long time and can see some mild improvements but have absolutely no intention of going carnivore because I love the taste of plants too much  . I can understand that there appears to be some good health benefits from the carnivore diet but do you ever consider the ethical implications, and/or the environmental implications of such high meat consumption? 

[AMS]

2 hours ago, SgtPepper said:

I am worried about other nutrients that are in animal foods but not in plant foods. in addition, the accessibility of nutrients through animal foods appears to be more bioavailable.

Yes from my understanding and experience animal product nutrients are more bio-available than from plants (and animals even eaten in isolation have everything the body needs with some plants being okay for some but actually unnecessary for health).  The argument against plants for some is that even though something on paper may seem nutritious, how much of it is actually getting absorbed? and how much getting inhibited due to plant defense mechanisms.  I have learnt that certain nutrients need fat or need to be in a combination to be uptaken and sometimes what you think is adequate potentially falls short.  There are certain internal conversion processes done to make the pre-cursor nutrient available in the body and from my understanding certain people don't have the ability to effectively make those conversions for whatever reason, maybe due to their genetic/environmental background or maybe just the fact that they don't have an appropriate gut.  Also it is thought that on top of the plant inhibiting digestion it can also cause inflammation and disease in high amounts.

 

1 hour ago, Shiva said:

@SgtPepper Yes it includes fish, mussels, milk and eggs except on rare occasions. But I eat cheese occasionally, when I can get very good quality, but it's too expensive for me to eat it on a daily basis.

I'm by no means a nutrition expert, so honestly I don't know some of the nutrients on this list. 

But regarding some I do know, my understanding is quite different. For example,

• When heart disease is the #1 killer in the west, why would you want to consume additional cholesterol besides what your body is producing?
• Plants logically don't contain saturated animal fat and animal bacteria, but what would you need them for? 
• What kind of hormones are in animal products and only in animals products that you really need? Isn't the problem rather that animal products are so full growth hormones to make them grow quicker that we consume these hormones as a byproduct, which causes all kinds of problems?
• You get vitamin D from the sun, not from animals or plants.
• B12 is also not made by animals, but by microbes that we are killing by sanitizing our environment. So, it makes sense to supplement it.

Please add to my current understanding if you know more.

I think the fact that you are eating some animal products that this is the reason for your decent health.  But then again in saying that it can be seen that even some long-term vegans are doing good but I think that will be the minority, I assume this because when you look at our physiology we are much closer to a carnivore than a herbivore, we don't have the large amounts of bacteria that these animals have, those bacteria are literally converting the plants into fat and the animal is then burning fat, as I have posted in another thread before, even herbivores are eating a diet HIGH in saturated fat even though it doesn't look so on the surface.

It is thought by some that actually all the diseases are being caused by a high carbohydrate diet.  Animal products in the diet have gone down drastically in the last 50 years since the demonization on saturated fat and cholesterol began due to inconclusive shaky epidemiology studies and nutrition/food industry politics.  Carbohydrate (even non-refined sugar products) intake as well as vegetable oil (which is a very new food) consumption has gone way up and really the SADer is only eating 20 or 25% of their calories from animal products which is lower than in the past but still disease is the worst it's been.  It makes sense if we are not supposed to be eating a diet low in saturated fat (considering the other animals aren't) and because we are we are still having these problems.  High carbs is thought to cause massive spikes in insulin which over time leads to insulin resistance.  A high carb diet is unnatural in nature.

There are a lot of myths out there about meat, animals in first world countries at least don't get growth hormones and the animals are taken off the food-line for the duration of their antibiotic treatment if needed.  It is in the farmers best interest to keep the animal healthy because it is an asset to him and also produces better seeming meat.  Factory farming has it's issues but I have read theories this only exists anyway because of big industry agriculture in the first place, that is killing local farms.  There is an abundance of subsidized cheaply produces grains and these major corporations make big bucks from seeds and pesticides, not to mention other industries profiting off the mishealth due to the current standard of diet.

Vit D is important, who knows how much our body needs.  Also a side note that maybe our standards of health and testing need to be raised to begin with.  If vegan is slightly better than SAD (in the beginning at least) that still doesn't make it healthy for everyone.  I have heard lots of opinions on B12 and don't really know.  I do know that sometimes some herbivores eat their own feces and also there are lots of videos out there when you can see them eating small animals when the chance arises so to me it seems like inferior nutrition, and especially seeming how our guts are not even adequately built for it.  Fiber and cellulose is indigestible for a human whereas real herbivores have a fermentation process due to bacteria in their stomach(s) or colon (foregut and hindgut fermenters).  Human's are well equipped with potent stomach acid and necessary enzymes to break down meat.  It is the easiest thing to digest.
 

 

1 hour ago, Space said:

@AMS You seem like a fairly level headed carnivore dieter. I've recently reintroduced meat back into my diet after being vegan for a fairly long time and can see some mild improvements but have absolutely no intention of going carnivore because I love the taste of plants too much  . I can understand that there appears to be some good health benefits from the carnivore diet but do you ever consider the ethical implications, and/or the environmental implications of such high meat consumption? 

I'm glad to hear you are noticing some improvements from reintroducing meat . It's commendable as well because I know how much hate you can get from other vegans for such a choice.  I think this is the great illusion, that some people do good on vegan in the short term and think they have found the answer but then stop accurately analysing their experience with it.  I bet most other vegans will say you just did it wrong or you could have perfected the winning combo if you stuck with it!  I think this is a quick rationalization as well because I have heard of people trying various approaches, how could these people know exactly what you ate, how much you experimented?  It is also a possibility that maybe it just isn't right for you, makes sense considering a lot of evidence also goes against it.  This is what appeals to some ex-vegans about the carnivore diet because it really is very simple.  Eat meat drink water.  I think some ex-vegans go straight to carnivore because they have some serious healing to do.  Not everyone needs to though, because it is very unconventional and quite a comittment.  I like how it serves as a very accurate elimination diet, you have far less variables so can finally know FOR SURE what's going on in your body.  Most of us adapt to eating toxins and will never realize it, and if that is how you want to live then I am not going to judge that!

Even on the ethics and environmental side of things you can go very deep with alternative information.  You realize lots of the "facts" said about meat's effect on the environment for example are actually very skewed.  Often they pin ALL-meat eating together, strawmanning factory farming in with pasture-raised meat and even then totally blowing it out of proportion to fit the agenda.  I can show a lot of alternative figures and articles from greenhouse gas gurus and other professionals.  For example I will post this info from this carnivore advocate:


I think grazing cattle in the right way actually greatly has the ability to improve the carbon in the soil and reverse desertification.  There are very sustainable farms out there that show promising signs for the future if the word can get out there (look up Joel Salatin's Polyface Farm).

In terms of ethics each to their own but the way I see it is for my life to happen death needs to occur, if eating industrially produced plants then a lot of death and long term suffering is also happening just not so obvious to some.  I think human health is more important than animals staying alive so think do what it takes for the individual.  It could be argued that most livestock animals wouldn't even exist if they weren't gunna get eaten and even that one death of an ethically raised cow would last many meals whereas eating lots of big agra grains could involve many more.  I think the conditions of the animals absolutely need to be improved but i also think there is a lot of misinformation and that cattle at least have a good life in the west, don't die a vicious death like they would in the wild and have food and water supplied all the time.  Factory farming is definitely an issue but even then they have an ongoing supply of food, water and shelter which is more that you can say for a lot of the third world humans!  I think eating more ethical meat and starting to recognize it's healing ability and potential environmental rejuevantion would actually stop the factory farming machine, I think that goes hand-in-hand with industrial agra.  But even then I still opt for the factory farming system if that's what it takes for human's to have health in the current world.  I also think appropriate local livestock practices could reduce world hunger and rather our cheap grains is what keeps these third world countries enslaved.

 

Edited December 4, 2018 by AMS

[purerogue]

I went into this trap of eating everything to get all nutrition components, turns out it is way more complex then you think , even if you let aside fact that you might have allergies against certain  products and it is extremely hard to find out exact product , because it can be  not just product but whole nutrition component and you are eating  whole bunch of them and it can take years for bad symptoms to arise ,  it gets even more complicated when you understand that just because it is written that it contains certain component, does not mean much, as thous components have sub categories that make huge difference.  

Edited December 5, 2018 by purerogue

[Space]

@AMS

The difficult thing is I could counter nearly every point you made in your reply. I’m not saying you are wrong. The truth is I really don’t know. I suppose this is why there’s so much conflict going on. Both ‘sides’ (I hate to talk about it that way) have their perspectives on each matter (which they are convinced are correct), but of course all of them are relative and not absolutely true. So there will never be an agreement unfortunately, unless theres some ridiculously comprehensive 10 year study comparing the two diets. But even then, if it somehow proved that the carnivore diet was better for your health, vegans would dismiss it, and of course vice-versa. So really everyone should just be open to what other people find most suitable for them. There is a distinct lack of open-mindedness within these communities and too much ideology. The ego just wants to know it’s opinions and beliefs are right. 

With regards to the environmental impact I have seen mixed information. So again I really don’t know what the truth is here. I would just naturally assume that agriculture would play a large part in global warming because its such a ridiculously massive industry around the world. I must say I am a little skeptical of that graph just because I have no idea where that information/data came from and the fact that it was posted by a carnivore dieter makes me even more suspicious ahaha. Also, what does that agriculture percentage include? Does it include all of the transportation of animals and their foods, the production of vast quantities of foods around the world, the maintenance of the animals, the processing of the meats, the manufacturing and processing of packaging and all of the transportation associated with that. I doubt it. 

 

 

 

[AMS]

3 hours ago, Space said:

@AMS

The difficult thing is I could counter nearly every point you made in your reply. I’m not saying you are wrong. The truth is I really don’t know. I suppose this is why there’s so much conflict going on. Both ‘sides’ (I hate to talk about it that way) have their perspectives on each matter (which they are convinced are correct), but of course all of them are relative and not absolutely true. So there will never be an agreement unfortunately, unless theres some ridiculously comprehensive 10 year study comparing the two diets. But even then, if it somehow proved that the carnivore diet was better for your health, vegans would dismiss it, and of course vice-versa. So really everyone should just be open to what other people find most suitable for them. There is a distinct lack of open-mindedness within these communities and too much ideology. The ego just wants to know it’s opinions and beliefs are right. 

With regards to the environmental impact I have seen mixed information. So again I really don’t know what the truth is here. I would just naturally assume that agriculture would play a large part in global warming because its such a ridiculously massive industry around the world. I must say I am a little skeptical of that graph just because I have no idea where that information/data came from and the fact that it was posted by a carnivore dieter makes me even more suspicious ahaha. Also, what does that agriculture percentage include? Does it include all of the transportation of animals and their foods, the production of vast quantities of foods around the world, the maintenance of the animals, the processing of the meats, the manufacturing and processing of packaging and all of the transportation associated with that. I doubt it.

You make a good point that it is difficult to know for sure and here I am just sharing an alternative theory to what most have heard from the vegans and the mainstream, or from what most have really ever considered.  I don't expect you to take my word for it but maybe to keep it as an option because before now it hadn't been thought as one!  But yes I do "believe" it to be true (as much of the diet that matters) as much as I don't want to use that word and I am also experiencing the truth (or my truth at least) directly so what can I say?  I think the difference is it is clear that many vegans are quitting veganism as of late whereas I see nothing but success stories or full recoveries of people going carnivore or keto after really wrecking their bodies either on vegan or SAD.  Although you can't really compare it like this, I am yet to see the same demise in the vlc/zc community assuming they stuck with the diet for a decent amount of time to allow their body to heal and didn't veer off due to cravings and acculturation (carbs n sugar are much more addictive than meat, if your body is craving meat, it's because it needs it... but still enjoys it).  I realize it is a very new movement and not much institutionalized science out there is recognizing it as a possibility due to the status quo being leaning towards a vegan, high carb diet.  There is still a good amount of strong studies (randomized clinical) coming out in favour of at least meat eating rather than going vegan.  In the coming years there will be more science stacking up on it all but for now it is a lot of anecodtes.  This is why I feel lucky to have gotten sick or else i wouldn't have found it.  I also know some people cure or settle things on vegan but i think this is due to the fresh veggies etc rather than the processed carbs and sugar they weere eating and maybe it doesn't last for them.  Maybe some can do a full heal, who truly knows but i think a lot plateu or decline.  If you look at a lot of youtubers and people in the vegan community then they are pretty sickly looking (being general of course) and often with health or mental health ailments.  These are the people who are supposed to know the best way to do the vegan diet, even professional doctors but they themselves are aging pretty bad.  Maybe these ones were the unlucky ones who's bodies couldn't handle it as well as they hoped?

It's the same with all the environmental stuff, I just want it to be considered an option because some articles I'm reading are very different to the graph figures below (thats a government website btw) that are getting posted in the mainstream.  Some study claimed 50% in comparison to the 9% total below and one even higher I believe, the delusion begun when there was an unfair measuring of total GHG in transportation in comparison to meat production and then media made big false claims.  The people later had to retract the figures that were said but since then it's been hard to clear myths (just like with the saturated fat/cholesterol thing).  Also for fields of crops synthetic fertiliser gets used which is non-renewable and kills the soil (the world's topsoil is rapidly eroding) whereas from the meat perspective (appropriate grazing) can restore the land.  I have also heard that 70% of existing agricultural land is only suitable for grazing animals and not crops from 'the greenhouse gas guru' Frank Mitloehner.  If that is true then that is huge to think some people want us to all turn vegan!  It's hard to truly know and I don't have all the answers.  I am just going with what I am discovering with this unique perspective and trying to keep my mind as open as I can in doing so while achieving health.  What if there is somewhat of an objective truth for human diet and we are not tapping into it because we have deluded ourselves and this is a potential big reason for a lot of the chaos you see in the world today?  Just my thoughts.

EDIT: According to this article? 84% of Vegetarians and even higher for Vegans turn back to meat.

https://www.psychologytoday.com/au/blog/animals-and-us/201412/84-vegetarians-and-vegans-return-meat-why

Edited December 5, 2018 by AMS

[AMS]

I will add this vid as well.  Yes Sv3rige is pretty out there but I'm noticing a chunk of what he is saying to be truth from my POV.  Interesting as another theory out there, whether the conspiracy happens intentionally or organically...I would probably lean towards the latter but who knows.  Want to reference Leo's radical open-mindedness and reality's counter-intuitiveness themes here!
 

 

[Space]

@AMS I definitely do not completely dismiss the carnivore diet because i'm trying to look at nutrition from an integral holistic perspective. If there wasn't such a big ethical shadow then i'd be open to trying it of course. But i'm more inclined to believe that a varied diet of whole foods, including good quality meats and fish is the optimal diet for the most amount of people (no sugar, wheat or dairy). 

The issue I have with sv3rige is that he's spreading his ideology and dogma in exactly the same way as the vegans do! Both sides have a collection of beliefs which they think are the truth. Yet everyone knows that both diets work for different people! No one diet is gonna be the ultimate diet for everyone. This is obvious. It's literally like two religions thinking they have the ultimate teaching. I think this is what people fail to realise. Vegans are equally guilty, despite having the ethical upper hand, because they also assume that it is the best diet for everyone. I thought this for a long time. But clearly it isn't true. I hope in the future we are able to artificially grow meat. I can see that happening eventually. 

Another issue I see quite often with the carnivore community is that they over generalise their ideas of veganism just from a select few examples. You watch sv3rige's montage of unhealthy vegans and then there is the assumption that all vegans are like that! Obviously this isn't true. There are many many vegans who are ridiculously healthy! I should add though that some of the vegans in sv3rige's video do look shockingly unhealthy. They are a poor example for what veganism can provide. 

Edited December 5, 2018 by Space

[pluto]

Simplicity works. Personally I've tried almost every diet/lifestyle that's come and gone over the last decade or so and what i found best is when its kept simple and light, you feel more alive and perform better in every way.

[Cepzeu]

Vegan is one of the healthiest diets if properly done. 

Most vegans approach diet from emotional stand point rather than nutritional standpoint, therefore they neglect a strict analysis of their diet and thus become deficient in many vitamins and minerals. In today's society properly controlled veganism is hard to accomplish in most places. 

You can get certain nutrients EASIER from animal sources but at the expense of ingesting cholesterol and (usually) lots of saturated fatty acids. Plus you ignore the environmental and moral considerations of veganism by continuing to eat meat.

It all depends on what you want. If you want to live easily and feel strong most of the time by eating meat, go ahead, but consider your quality of life and health deteriorating rapidly by 60 as arterial blockage around your body reaches the critical value of 70%. If you want to live to 110 and can be bothered organising a balanced vegan diet in a society that makes it hard, then you can do that as well, but you have to be smart about it.

But first define what 'healthy' means for you. You can feel 'good' and 'healthy' by eating only meat, but you will die in your 60's. You will feel like crap for the first month if you move from a standard american diet to a vegan diet but it will pay off in the future. If you get the nutrients right you should feel good after about a month.

Vegans need B12, but to be honest so do carnivores and lots of elderly. 

[outlandish]

I appreciate that Dr. Greger uses the language "plant-based" instead of "vegan". There is so much emotional charge around veganism these days.

The world benefits from paying attention to the dietary research he presents. Healthy for the body, healthy for the planet.

[pluto]

@Cepzeu The excess use on garlic, onions, heavy herbs/spices flavors could be a result why both struggle with absorption issues with Iron and B12.

Give this a read http://www.vibrancyuk.com/B12.html

Personally i do not supplement directly because i consume wholefoods pared with super-foods that are naturally richer in those extra vitamins/minerals that are rare in today's food. I also keep a balance and do not get to a level of over-stimulation to send the body out of whack cause then a water fast is probably the best thing to reset the chemical balance within the body so everything starts to function properly again.

However there is plenty B12 in plant-based foods just very small amounts but this is all you need if your body performs how it should, it circulates, stores and uses what it needs. People have to be careful with supplementation because it has potential to send the body out of balance because it has not evolved to consume such large amounts in one sitting.

Nevertheless, spend time in nature, sunlight, get some mud on you and eat organic whole fresh food as much as you can you will thrive either way, we overcomplicate everything cause life is really quite simple. The simpler you live, the happier you become and the more you end up Understanding how life really works.

Sometimes knowing too much only deludes Understanding. Hope this helps

 

 

[SgtPepper]

On 12/4/2018 at 4:23 PM, Shiva said:

@SgtPepper Yes it includes fish, mussels, milk and eggs except on rare occasions. But I eat cheese occasionally, when I can get very good quality, but it's too expensive for me to eat it on a daily basis.

I'm by no means a nutrition expert, so honestly I don't know some of the nutrients on this list. 

But regarding some I do know, my understanding is quite different. For example,

• When heart disease is the #1 killer in the west, why would you want to consume additional cholesterol besides what your body is producing?
• Plants logically don't contain saturated animal fat and animal bacteria, but what would you need them for? 
• What kind of hormones are in animal products and only in animals products that you really need? Isn't the problem rather that animal products are so full growth hormones to make them grow quicker that we consume these hormones as a byproduct, which causes all kinds of problems?
• You get vitamin D from the sun, not from animals or plants.
• B12 is also not made by animals, but by microbes that we are killing by sanitizing our environment. So, it makes sense to supplement it.

Please add to my current understanding if you know more.

I'm not really sure what all of those nutrients mean either, besides the basic ones.

I believe creatine in meat may be why I felt "stronger". Eating plant based, when I went to the gym, I was still able to lift the same weight, but it felt harder sometimes. At the same time, I felt lighter and perhaps like I had more energy for endurance.

I am also not a nutrition expert so I can't answer all of the questions. From what I understand, vitamin D can come from animals especially if you eat it raw. b12 is made in soil, but more is also made within a cow's gut.. Animal bacteria from a healthy animal improves immune system and creates a healthy microbiome. I am not sure that cholesterol is the problem. The Standard American diet, is also filled with processed foods, simple sugars, grains, and not much vegetables or fruits besides your good ol' lettuce and tomatoes.

Animals should not be pumped with antibiotics or growth hormones. They should grow up in a healthy environment with space, food, and conscious responsible owners. Eating their natural foods as much as possible. Mcdonald for example does not serve grass-fed beef.

Also consider that vitamin A in carrots/plants are different than vitamin A found in liver. https://empoweredsustenance.com/true-vitamin-a-foods/

Overall, I feel like there are nutrients in meat and fish, I can't get from plants. And there isn't strong evidence that meat when eaten with a responsible lifestyle is bad for you. From my perspective, I see strong evidence that meat/fish is good and perhaps even necessary for optimal health. 

I am not saying, I won't ever try a vegetarian/vegan diet again though. I still feel like I'm in an experimental stage. I think there needs to be more studies on the vegan diet.

Here is an interesting video:

 

Edit:

I should mention that I have seen all the big vegan documentaries, besides earthlings..., watched various vegan youtubers like Mic the Vegan, Simnett nutrition, Jon Venus, Earthling Ed, and more. 

Edited December 7, 2018 by SgtPepper

[SgtPepper]

2 hours ago, pluto said:

@Cepzeu 

Give this a read http://www.vibrancyuk.com/B12.html

 

 

 

I think you're right with keeping things simple. and I agree with the general idea of the article, that gut absorption is more important than taking massive doses of b12. I feel that the author's idea of a meat-eater does not match mine though, a meat eater to me is not just the average American.

When I think of a meat eaters I think of the inuits, sv3rige, Aajonus Vonderplanitz or the Maasai people. 

Edited December 7, 2018 by SgtPepper

[outlandish]

We're omnivores, there's no doubt about it. Part of what I like about Dr. Greger's use of the term "plant based diet" is that it leaves space for the occasional deviation from the pattern, rather than "veganism" which sounds like a rigid doctrine. I reckon you can have your cake and eat it too by being primarily plant based, and adding in a bit of meat here and there - especially including organ meats, marrow, brains and all that - there are tons of nutrients in the parts of the animal most westerners throw away. 

Personally I don't eat meat, aside from a bit of fish and sea critters here and there. I was raised that way, and I've never had any nutrition problems. I'm very fit, strong and healthy, an excess of energy, and people think I'm younger than my age. 

Another though on diet: I bet our pre-agricultural ancestors ate a lot of bugs. They probably wouldn't have had stigma around it, and it would be a ready source of high-quality protein and nutrients. I don't know if there's archaeological evidence to support or contradict this idea, but it makes sense to me.

[SgtPepper]

5 hours ago, outlandish said:

We're omnivores, there's no doubt about it. Part of what I like about Dr. Greger's use of the term "plant based diet" is that it leaves space for the occasional deviation from the pattern, rather than "veganism" which sounds like a rigid doctrine. I reckon you can have your cake and eat it too by being primarily plant based, and adding in a bit of meat here and there - especially including organ meats, marrow, brains and all that - there are tons of nutrients in the parts of the animal most westerners throw away. 

Personally I don't eat meat, aside from a bit of fish and sea critters here and there. I was raised that way, and I've never had any nutrition problems. I'm very fit, strong and healthy, an excess of energy, and people think I'm younger than my age. 

Another though on diet: I bet our pre-agricultural ancestors ate a lot of bugs. They probably wouldn't have had stigma around it, and it would be a ready source of high-quality protein and nutrients. I don't know if there's archaeological evidence to support or contradict this idea, but it makes sense to me.

That's where I feel like I am heading, towards a plant-based diet but with servings of meat or fish. I am not sure if vegan is rigid doctrine, it is more of an ethical concern about hurting animals, so I understand. However, I am starting to feel that killing fish or animal may be necessary for nutrients that create optimal health.

[outlandish]

On 12/7/2018 at 3:50 PM, SgtPepper said:

That's where I feel like I am heading, towards a plant-based diet but with servings of meat or fish. I am not sure if vegan is rigid doctrine, it is more of an ethical concern about hurting animals, so I understand. However, I am starting to feel that killing fish or animal may be necessary for nutrients that create optimal health.

Yeah the hurting animals is the important bit I think too. The industrial food system is absolutely horrible to animals, with very little compassion for their subjective experience.

If you eat meat find ethically raised animals where you know the source, and you know how they're treated. It's never going to be perfect, but there's a big difference between the standard brutal industrial practices, and the (usually much pricier) "ethical" meat. I don't think people should feel guilty eating the occasional meat if that animal was given a good life and compassionate slaughter.

[Michael569]

On 04/12/2018 at 8:43 PM, SgtPepper said:

On 04/12/2018 at 8:15 PM, Shiva said:

Such as? I haven't eaten meat in 5 years and my blood values have barely changed. They are neither better nor worse, only blood pressure overall went down and B vitamins are lower, but still good.

does that include fish and mussels?

Here is a list from the video I posted before.

and an online source:

https://www.healthline.com/nutrition/7-nutrients-you-cant-get-from-plants#section2

your experience in blood values is exactly why I don't believe in the anti-nutrients rhetoric. 

aaargh...this picture is so riddiculous on so many different levels. Wanted to stay away from this flamewar but this just needs to be addressed as it is pure BS, no offence. 

• Vitamin A precursor called beta carotene that is easily converted to retinol (active A). Single carrot contains so much beta carotene that you cant even utilise all of it. 
• B6 -  not true found in variety of nuts, fruits and greens
• vitamin D - true very poor in plants but the sun provides you all you need or supplements. Many omnivores and carnivores still dont get enough as deficiency is rampant across the world. 
• B12 - fair enough, you need supplement for that. 
• F - fluoride is toxic and it is found in tiny amounts in many foods. You need very little of it. 
• K2 - produced by gut bacteria in sufficient amounts. 
• Creatine - produced internally from amino acids in food
• Taurine - produced internally from amino acids in food
• Carnitine - produced internally from amino acids in food. You need to have a severe metabolic disorder to be low on this. 
• Carnosine - don't know much about this but also produced from available amino acids. 
• Cholesterol - produced by the liver at 1000mg/day
• saturated animal fat - same as saturated plant fat, you need very little and you get that from nuts and seeds. 
• Heme iron - not found in plants true but contributes to colorectal cancer. Plant iron is less absorbed but in most people sufficient unless there is some other issue like GIT bleeding. Body is very savy with iron and it gets easily stored in liver if needed later. Too much is very harmful.
• CLA - metabolised from PUFAs
• Coq10 - produced by liver, pointless to supplement unless on statins. 
• enzymes - found in many fruits such as papaya, pineapple, mango...
• hormones - produced internally and should not be taken from outside, may support growth of tumours (IGF1)

[AMS]

15 hours ago, Michael569 said:

aaargh...this picture is so riddiculous on so many different levels. Wanted to stay away from this flamewar but this just needs to be addressed as it is pure BS, no offence. 

• Vitamin A precursor called beta carotene that is easily converted to retinol (active A). Single carrot contains so much beta carotene that you cant even utilise all of it. 
• B6 -  not true found in variety of nuts, fruits and greens
• vitamin D - true very poor in plants but the sun provides you all you need or supplements. Many omnivores and carnivores still dont get enough as deficiency is rampant across the world. 
• B12 - fair enough, you need supplement for that. 
• F - fluoride is toxic and it is found in tiny amounts in many foods. You need very little of it. 
• K2 - produced by gut bacteria in sufficient amounts. 
• Creatine - produced internally from amino acids in food
• Taurine - produced internally from amino acids in food
• Carnitine - produced internally from amino acids in food. You need to have a severe metabolic disorder to be low on this. 
• Carnosine - don't know much about this but also produced from available amino acids. 
• Cholesterol - produced by the liver at 1000mg/day
• saturated animal fat - same as saturated plant fat, you need very little and you get that from nuts and seeds. 
• Heme iron - not found in plants true but contributes to colorectal cancer. Plant iron is less absorbed but in most people sufficient unless there is some other issue like GIT bleeding. Body is very savy with iron and it gets easily stored in liver if needed later. Too much is very harmful.
• CLA - metabolised from PUFAs
• Coq10 - produced by liver, pointless to supplement unless on statins. 
• enzymes - found in many fruits such as papaya, pineapple, mango...
• hormones - produced internally and should not be taken from outside, may support growth of tumours (IGF1)

I'm not that knowledgeable in vitamins etc but I think the main argument is that not everybody has the ability to convert plant nutrients into a very bioavailable form, or at least not on the level as if they were just eating meat.

Also lots of things where you say "produced internally"etc you could never know for sure exactly if the amount is sufficient.  I have also heard that certain vitamins and micronutrients need to be eaten with saturated fat for uptake (don't have a study in mind but could try and look around).  In regards to vitamin D, when you say "omnivores" and "carnivores" you are not talking about a standard of optimal health, the perceived meat eaters of society are still eating 75%? or something calories from plants.  Maybe vitamin D would be easier to get enough of if eating more meat, especially for the colder climates.

I think this is the big thing with plant based is people think they are hitting RDA's etc on paper but how much nutrients are actually being effectively absorbed?  and how optimal are the health standards to begin with? That would be hard to know and all the science in the world would struggle to predict the effectiveness of the diet accurately for everyone, a lot of variables and considering we aren't herbivores as a species it wouldn't really make sense if we could all eat that way imo.  Sometimes the bigger picture must be seen rather than sticking to the technical details (which is what a lot of vegan youtubers do in debates).

[AMS]

Oh and there is a good amount of anecdotal evidence (and scientific as well) showing great success with low carb and less diets.  Maybe this is another potential critique of the vegan diet is that it is mostly high carb/low fat which is starting to appear mislead with many people doing much better on a higher fat diet.  This already just about puts a halt in the world going vegan (if anyone is seriously considering that?).

EDIT: It seems some people eat keto vegan but I would imagine they would struggle to eat enough of the right fat, I think that would also be hard to do in nature so am skeptical of it.  Also imo it is especially saturated fat that we should be eating more of but we think it is bad for us.

Edited December 10, 2018 by AMS