NutritionFacts.org (Michael Greger)

[Michael569]

@AMS thanks for the counter arguments and fair points made. I agree that the bioavailability and convertibility per individual vary largely but lot of knowledge we have today in nutrition comes from large observational studies and simply from clinical experiences made over decades and decades of medical research and practice. 

Where I mean "produced internally" means that all these amino acids like creatine and carnitine are produced from other amino acids, we don't really know the exact amounts but we do know what amino acids and we can tell if person is defficient. For example if you were lacking carnitine, you would know pretty quickly as it plays role in fat metabolism i.e. beta oxidation and kreb's cycle (and other scientific blah blah...) and it would mess up your energy levels to chronic levels. 

Yeah, when saying omnivores and carnivores I was pretty much talking about the same type of person, the one that eats meat although there are massive differences in the amounts of meat people eat which makes hellofa difference in everything. I didn't want to direct this topic to veganism and non veganism as quite frankly that horse has been beaten way too much on this forum and nobody gives a f.. anyways, my arguments were positioned against the silly picture above that was clearly made by someone who hasn't studied nutrition properly. 

Agreed that vitamins A,D,E,K are lipophilic and require fat to be properly absorbed but when you look at it most people do have some sort of fat with nearly each meal. Be it olive oil on salad, nuts in breakfast, seeds in smoothies etc..so that would only be a concern in severely malnourished or super high carb individual..or maybe someone with liver/galbladder dysfunction. 

Granted, there is evidence demonstrating benefits in Multiple Sclerosis and Epileptic Seizures have been reduced quite massively with keto diets. On the other hand , neither of these comes even close to the destruction that heart disease causes and high carb plant based diet has been shown to be the number 1 prevention against those. 

Again, not looking to spark an argument here, just stating some facts. I do not have experience with high fat diet but definitely belive that many people thrive on it, lose weight and build muscle but it should not be said that we need animal products to get basic nutrients besides vitamin B12 and vitamin D which both get from sun anyways. 

Edited December 10, 2018 by Michael569

[SgtPepper]

I found some evidence to back up the claims.

"Why you won't get vitamin A from carrots".

https://empoweredsustenance.com/true-vitamin-a-foods/

I also found this long list, on a description of one of sv3rige's videos.

Quote

Here are some basics on vegetarians:

https://www.psychologytoday.com/blog/animals-and-us/201412/84-vegetarians-and-vegans-return-meat-why

Here are their problems as to why they usually quit:

Vegans are deficit in b12:

http://jamanetwork.com/journals/jamaneurology/fullarticle/784788

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/16219987

High fiber diets reduce serum half life of vitamin D3:

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/6299329

Vegans have weaker bones due to lower calcium intake and vitamin D3 levels:

http://jamanetwork.com/journals/jamainternalmedicine/fullarticle/486478

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/21092700

Vegans have a worse memory compared to non vegans due to creatine deficiency in vegans:

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/21118604

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/14561278

Vegans have less gains compared to non vegans:

http://m.ajcn.nutrition.org/content/70/6/1032.full

Vegans are deficient in omega threes:

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/16087975

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/16188209

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/12323090

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/12323085

Vegans are deficit in carnitine:

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/21753065

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/2756917

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1628441/

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/11043928

Vegans are deficient in taurine:

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/3354491

Vegans are deficient in iodine:

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/12748410

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/21613354

Vegans are deficient in Coenzyme Q10:

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/16873950

Vegans are deficient in iron due to the fact that iron from plant sources is less bioavailable than iron from meat sources:

https://ods.od.nih.gov/factsheets/Iron-HealthProfessional/

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/11269606

Vegans are deficient in vitamin A:

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/19103647

http://m.jn.nutrition.org/content/137/11/2346.full

http://healthybabycode.com/why-you-cant-get-vitamin-a-from-eating-vegetables (studies linked in the article)

https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2009/11/091118072051.htm

http://researchnews.osu.edu/archive/betacarotene.htm

http://ajcn.nutrition.org/content/71/6/1545.full

http://www.fasebj.org/content/23/4/1041.full

http://www.thehealthyhomeeconomist.com/beta-carotene-vitamin-a-myth

http://empoweredsustenance.com/true-vitamin-a-foods

https://www.westonaprice.org/health-topics/abcs-of-nutrition/vitamin-a-vagary

https://www.westonaprice.org/health-topics/abcs-of-nutrition/vitamin-a-saga

https://philmaffetone.com/vitamin-a-and-the-beta-carotene-myth

Calcium in Rats

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/3183773

Magnesium and Oxalates

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/15035687

Vegans have a lower sperm count than non vegans:

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/35465

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3257705/

Vegans have lower testosterone than non vegans:

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/1435181

http://m.ajcn.nutrition.org/content/42/1/127.abstract

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/159772

http://m.jap.physiology.org/content/82/1/49

Veganism causes loss of libido and erectile dysfunction:

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/21353476

Children who are raised on strict vegan diets do not grow normally:

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/4067152

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/8005079

Children develop rickets after prolonged periods of strict vegetarian diets:

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1874810/pdf/canmedaj01383-0052.pdf

"There are some links between vegetarians and lower birthweight and earlier labour"

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/7788369

Effects of vitamin B12 and folate deficiency on brain development in children:

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3137939/

"Particular attention should be paid to adequate protein intake and sources of essential fatty acids, iron, zinc, calcium, and vitamins B12 and D. Supplementation may be required in cases of strict vegetarian diets with no intake of any animal products."

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2912628/

These next five are case studies:

Cerebral atrophy in a vitamin B12-deficient infant of a vegetarian mother:

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/25076673

Severe megaloblastic anemia in child breast fed by a vegetarian mother:

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/8442642

Consequences of exclusive breast-feeding in vegan mother newborn - case report:

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/19748244

Nutritional vitamin B12 deficiency in a breast-fed infant of a vegan-diet mother:

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/3948463

"We report the case of a 7 month-old girl that presented with acute anemia, generalized muscular hypotonia and failure to thrive. Laboratory evaluation revealed cobalamin deficiency, due to a vegan diet of the mother."

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/18293883

Most recent studies using more sensitive techniques for detecting B12 deficiency have found that 68% of vegetarians and 83% of vegans are B12 deficient, compared to just 5% of omnivores. https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/12816782

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/10966896

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/10552882

On paper, calcium intake is similar in vegetarians and omnivores (probably because both eat dairy products), but is much lower in vegans, who are often deficient.

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/21139125

http://ajcn.nutrition.org/content/70/3/543s.full

Vegetarians and omnivores have similar levels of serum iron, but levels of ferritin—the long-term storage form of iron—are lower in vegetarians than in omnivores.

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/24871479

Fruits and Vegetables

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/12064344

This is significant, because ferritin depletion is the first stage of iron deficiency. Moreover, although vegetarians often have similar iron intakes to omnivores on paper, it is more common for vegetarians (and particularly vegans) to be iron deficient. For example, this study of 75 vegan women in Germany found that 40% of them were iron deficient, despite average iron intakes that were above the recommended daily allowance.

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/14988640

http://ajcn.nutrition.org/content/78/3/633S.long

many plant foods that contain zinc also contain phytate, which inhibits zinc absorption. Vegetarian diets tend to reduce zinc absorption by about 35% compared with omniovorous diet.

http://ajcn.nutrition.org/content/78/3/633S.long

Thus, even when the diet meets or exceeds the RDA for zinc, deficiency may still occur. One study suggested that vegetarians may require up to 50% more zinc than omnivores for this reason.

http://ajcn.nutrition.org/content/78/3/633S.long

The Naive Vegetarian

http://www.second-opinions.co.uk/vegetarian.html#.WTTqMNwlEqT

Soy decreases your testosterone

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/15735098

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/labs/articles/10798211/

Why you need dietary cholesterol:

Very great total picture kind of lecture:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uc1XsO3mxX8

Eating meat increases testosterone

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/11103227

Saturated Fat Finally Vindicated in Long Buried Study

http://articles.mercola.com/sites/articles/archive/2016/04/25/saturated-fat-finally-vindicated.aspx

Medium Chain Triglyceride Oil Consumption as Part of a Weight Loss Diet Does Not Lead to an Adverse Metabolic Profile When Compared to Olive Oil

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2874191/

Why you need cholesterol for testosterone

http://www.livestrong.com/article/435773-cholesterol-testosterone/

Saturated Fat

http://m.ajcn.nutrition.org/content/early/2010/01/13/ajcn.2009.27725.short

http://journals.co-action.net/index.php/fnr/article/view/31694

Humans evolved a specific hunting mechanism recently

https://www.nature.com/news/baseball-players-reveal-how-humans-evolved-to-throw-so-well-1.13281

https://phys.org/news/2013-06-chimps-humans-baseball-pitcher.html

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1y__4xX8xp8

Very wide and diverse amounts of similar research and current scientific consensus (look at the links at the bottom)

https://examine.com/nutrition/will-eating-eggs-increase-my-cholesterol

Exercise lowers cholesterol

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/2297284

http://www.webmd.com/cholesterol-management/features/exercise-to-lower-cholesterol

Europeans can probably digest fat better than other races

https://www.nap.edu/read/11537/chapter/13 (also a generic good read on dietary cholesterol and dieting)

https://archive.is/HD6UZ

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yRELldIuZyM

http://www.sciencemag.org/news/2014/04/did-europeans-get-fat-neandertals

 

Edited December 11, 2018 by SgtPepper

[Outer]

1 hour ago, SgtPepper said:

Vegans have a worse memory compared to non vegans due to creatine deficiency in vegans:

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/21118604

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/14561278

Actually, the vegetarians or vegans or whatever, had better memory than the meat eaters after both went under creatine supplementation.

□, Vegetarian; ■, meat-eater.

 

 

Edited December 11, 2018 by Outer

[AMS]

2 hours ago, Outer said:

Actually, the vegetarians or vegans or whatever, had better memory than the meat eaters after both went under creatine supplementation.

□, Vegetarian; ■, meat-eater.

 

 

Interesting.  There are so many studies out there claiming a whole bunch of diverse things.  I think this is where we need to get to as a society in not putting our complete trust in current institutionalized nutrition (or science in general).  Back in the 50s Ancel Keys came up with the hypothesis that cholesterol and saturated fat have been causing our problems but that was just a hypothesis.  The field of Nutrition at large has based itself especially off epidemiology studies and a stance has become institutionalized.  It now makes it hard for scientists opposing the status quo (which some have been doing for decades) and it is difficult for them to receive funding.  There is also hardernosed (RCT) science out there showing that people are having health benefits from high fat/low carb diets.  It seems some of us have forgotten that low fat was just a hypothesis, which is clearly getting challenged and has been since it was put forth. 

I don't spend much time on studies personally because often they seem not fully credible (poor data collection, many variables) or else sometimes funded by industry.  So who's to know every time if there is some agenda involved in how the study is analyzed?  But in saying that I wanted to point out that sometimes studies showing funding from the meat industry etc may be assumed to be biased but I have read that sometimes it's the only possible way such a study can be done becuase they can't get any other funding because it opposes the mainstream.  So it seems some industry funded studies may be legit and others I would imagine biased...it's very complex.  I have read that there is a lot of politics behind the scenes in the field of nutrition.

This is why I try to see things from the bigger picture, this is why I think all the anecdotal evidence piling up of people doing well on lower carb diets and people getting sick as vegans...or even just that the SAD standards are also mislead (because they are eating high carb) that these are more important than some give credit.

Is there not a chance that we've simply gotten it wrong?  As I've said in the past form the research/anecdotes/experience I've seen (and who truly knows) every other mammal is eating a diet high in saturated fat, why would humans be the exception?

I think there is a revolution happening atm and over the coming years it will become pretty obvious.  Once again, not to say that some can't do well on a higher carb diet but I don't think that that should be a standard we are shooting for as as a society and imo they would probs do even better with less carbs.  I know people point to the blue zones etc but some of these zones are still eating a decent amount of animal products and there are also lifestyle, community, faith etc factors that need to come to mind.  It should also be known that Hong Kong has the longest life expectancy as a nation and also eats about the most meat so if nothing else then it can be at least seen that meat is not the problem.  Whether or not the blue zones and hong kong could be doing better on a lower carb/higher fat diet? I would say most probs yes, but that's just my opinion of course.

Here's a good book I am reading atm about the politics of nutrition and how as a society we may have gotten it all wrong with the low fat hypothesis.  The researcher took 9 years to write it and interviewed many of the original people that conducted the studies/were involved.  She demonstrates how it's very possible a lot of this initial science is mislead and how society has ran with it too quickly.

https://thebigfatsurprise.com/

Edited December 11, 2018 by AMS

[AMS]

I will share another post from a carnivore advocate.  You may think this automatically discredits him because he has a certain stance but it could also be a trap of it's own to block yourself entirely off from it.

You can do a google search and find a lot of other links about Hong Kong and it's meat consumption/life-expectancy claiming the same (not sure of the 400% figure).  I especially wanted to include this post though because he makes a good point about correlation not equaling causation but at the same time it opens one up to the possibility that maybe they got it wrong with the whole demonization of meat.  In terms of life expectancy, I guess there are a lot of other factors that must go into it too if it can be so varied amongst diets.



 

[Michael569]

@SgtPepper some of those are very legit studies, for example I wasn't aware of the impact of high fibre on serum vitamin D...will look more into that.  Many of the links though are misleading, misunderstood or quite outdated. I could now spend 5 hours browsing through pubmed and producing a list of studies that demonstrate why plant based diets are superior to omnivore diets in so many aspects...but that's not the point. I was addressing that silly picture you posted that pretty much said that non-meat diets are deficient in half of the known nutrients which is nonsense. You copypasted bunch of links from a person that is making their living on 99% carnivore diet, ofcourse they will have their own arsenal of pubmed studies confirming the bias...inherently there is no difference between Sv3ridge and Vegan gains. I see two arogant pricks who are insecure in their own beliefs and bash on everybody not following their ideology....they both have their own degree of truth however perhaps both are taking it bit too far. 

 

 

 

 

[SgtPepper]

I just found those studies yesterday, so I'm slowly going through them as well. The thread inspired me to be do more research on nutrition.

In addition, the main reason why I posted it is that I notice, in general, vegans largely use science to back up their lifestyle.

So I just wanted to show that there is a case for animal products. I do not think the answer is to blindly follow what a study says tho.

I think self-experimentation is a more accurate way to know what is healthy for each person, looking at one's genes, the culture behind it, and staying open minded.

12 hours ago, Outer said:

Actually, the vegetarians or vegans or whatever, had better memory than the meat eaters after both went under creatine supplementation.

. that is interesting! In general, I think the study illustrates how important creatine can be for mind-body performance. 

[SoothedByRain]

Next vid isn't me but I watched it yesterday (when it was posted) and its relevant to this thread. Greg eats high carb, mostly fruit.