Thought on Enlightenment -- Very Very deep

[Bauer1977]

From what I have learnt over the years, it seems to be very likely that the Source (God) has created the Universe, or the realm of reality, or the illusion, for the simple sake of there being a realm of experience/duality/creation/separateness, as opposed to there just being a state of Being/stillness. Simply because something is better than nothing. Maybe you agree, maybe not, but that makes sense to me. 

Given that, God or the source seemingly created souls for there to be an individualistic and separate illusory entity from the source. Then souls were tasked with guiding a human life over many many lifetimes into a state of Enlightenment. Once a person reaches Enlightenment, doesn't it seem likely that the soul also becomes aware of its own true nature and illusory separateness from the source as well? The entire structure of the illusion appears to me to be set up like a game. Once the vale of the illusion is removed, the human and the soul both become aware of their own true nature within the Oneness of all things, not as part of the source or linked to it, but as the source. At this point, it also becomes clear that there never was a soul anyways, it had also been an illusion all along. Does it seem reasonable that the soul has also completed its task and is then destined to dissolve back into the source once that Enlightened human lifetime has ended? It seems to me that the entire structure of the illusion is set up entirely for the sake of their being an illusion of separateness. Once that is gone, that's it. And once that has been resolved there really is no other point, no where else to go, nothing else to do and nothing else to be.

Obviously the source continues with the creation of new souls and the illusion continues on forever and ever, as it has forever. It seems to me that the whole purpose of the illusion is really just for the sake of there being an illusion. And the purpose of souls and humans is to figure it out. However long it takes, it doesn't really matter anyways because there is nothing else to do, and no where else to be. Once Oneness has been remembered and re-established, how can there be a spirit world, or some other state of separation or individualized existence on some other level?

[Bauer1977]

Yes, I agree.... but what about the idea of souls dissolving back into the source once the human life that they have nurtured reaches Enlightenment? The whole structure of everything seems to point to an end game for any sense of separation from the source once the vale of the illusion has been lifted. That seems to be the whole purpose for any entity that appears to exist as a separate form, including a soul. Enlightenment on the human level is seemingly not just Ego death, but soul death as well. 

[non_nothing]

37 minutes ago, Bauer1977 said:

Source (God) has created the Universe

Thank you for pointing your idea out, It was a long time before I thought about this.

38 minutes ago, Bauer1977 said:

for the simple sake of there being a realm of experience/duality/creation/separateness, as opposed to there just being a state of Being/stillness

It's effortless. The precious gem that I've found in my life experience that It is effortlessly projected every millisecond.

40 minutes ago, Bauer1977 said:

Simply because something is better than nothing. 

This point is EGO I'd say. Who concludes betterness? You create that duality. You lose the battle over this point.

41 minutes ago, Bauer1977 said:

Given that, God or the source seemingly created souls for there to be an individualistic and separate illusory entity from the source. Then souls were tasked with guiding a human life over many many lifetimes into a state of Enlightenment.

From this point on you continue building your story. Do not get me wrong, I really enjoyed what you've written but you missing a lot of points about Enlightenment. First you gotta discover who you really are then a lot will make sense. Btw

42 minutes ago, Bauer1977 said:

many many lifetimes

You only live one life, that is infinite.

[non_nothing]

You can contemplate on who runs the giant machine? Really think of it. As a universe, who runs the giant machine?

Second question is, is that giant machine also runs your body too? Or you take actions to e.g move your hand and write comments down here? Where can you put yourself in this scenario?

[Bauer1977]

What I am really asking, is about the idea of there not just being Ego death with Enlightenment, but there also being soul death. The general idea is that the soul is around for many human lifetimes. It takes that long to reach Enlightenment. True or not, I can't say. But the fact that there is a soul is hard to argue. So once a person becomes Enlightened, does the soul also discover its own true nature and dissolve back into the source as well?

[ground]

Whatever narrative you develop it won't matter as long as you do not seek affirmation from others. So you should keep your narrative to yourself and  make sure that the narrative is conclusive for you. If it is conclusive for you there is no need to seek affirmation from others.

Another option would be to simply avoid speculation because speculative thought is and will always be baseless.

Edited November 30, 2018 by ground

[Bauer1977]

4 minutes ago, ground said:

Whatever narrative you develop it won't matter as long as you do not seek affirmation from others. So you should keep your narrative to yourself and  make sure that the narrative is conclusive for you. If it is conclusive for you there is no need to seek affirmation from others.

Another option would be to simply avoid speculation because speculative thought is and will always be baseless.

That isn't much of an endorsement for a message board, from someone who is commenting on a message board.....

[Bauer1977]

Look folks, I am not interested in having a critique of my wording or the fact that I am posting it here. Or the high and mighty who have only one view of spirituality and feel it necessary to judge, or feel that its the wrong question worded in the wrong way and what that means to them for whatever reason.

I am looking to see how other people feel about the idea that Enlightenment is not just a case of Ego death, but also of soul death.

[ground]

1 minute ago, Bauer1977 said:

That isn't much of an endorsement for a message board, from someone who is commenting on a message board.....

Depends ... if the goal is the cessation of speculation by means of enlightenment then every disillusioning remark may be welcomed.

Also one may learn about techniques of mindfulness, contemplation or meditation that may silence speculative mind on such a board. Or one may learn that every topic can be regarded from countless perspectives and get to know relativity of language and conceptual thinking.

[Bauer1977]

4 minutes ago, ground said:

Depends ... if the goal is the cessation of speculation by means of enlightenment then every disillusioning remark may be welcomed.

Also one may learn about techniques of mindfulness, contemplation or meditation that may silence speculative mind on such a board. Or one may learn that every topic can be regarded from countless perspectives and get to know relativity of language and conceptual thinking.

Given the depths of your wisdom then.... Ego death = Soul death? Or no?

[Nahm]

@Bauer1977 (op) Great stuff. But if it’s really an illusion, it’s really an illusion. Then there’s nothing. But that would mean you are nothing. That would mean I am nothing! Which would mean definitions of nothing, are actually nothing. What would that mean? Nothing. Meaning would be illusory too.  Why and how could nothing need something to realize - NOTHING! ? In realizing nothing, something is illusory. “Why & how” are some thing.  Slippery slope. Very sneaky. 

Wait though, this would mean that even nothing is illusory - that death itself, was never something, and was never nothing. 

How could that be though, given you’re alive, right now?

???

[ground]

33 minutes ago, Bauer1977 said:

I am looking to see how other people feel about the idea that Enlightenment is not just a case of Ego death, but also of soul death.

From my perspective 'enlightenment' is not appropriately expressed as 'something to be attained' but as 'something to be realized as having been present from the outset'.

'ego' is a term that I know from psychology only, so for me it is strange that this term is so commonly used here, but I guess that this may have to do with Leo's use of language. I prefer to use the terms 'I', 'my', 'mine' or 'self' instead.

'soul' I do know from christian religion only and I do not believe in 'soul'. Also I do not believe in 'God'. But honestly, if being asked what I do believe then I would be completely at a loss how to answer. This is because 'believe [in] sth' for me means 'to take sth as truth' or 'as truly existing'.

Also I find the expression 'ego death' inappropriate since what does not exist in the first place cannot die. There are mental habits of imputing 'I', 'my', 'mine' or 'self' as truths or as truly existing. These habits may cease.

Edited November 30, 2018 by ground

[Bauer1977]

30 minutes ago, Yousef said:

I think you are asking wether or not there will be a reincarnation for an enlightened ego ..or is it gonna be eternal nirvana after the ego death  (means the ego will not come back again after that)?.. right? 

Close, but not quite. I guess another way of wording it would be to say do souls also realize that they are part of the illusion and become Enlightened when  the person reaches Enlightenment? If so, does soul dissolve back into the source then as well? As it would seem to have served its purpose as an illusory separate entity from the source as well.

[Bauer1977]

30 minutes ago, Nahm said:

@Bauer1977 (op) Great stuff. But if it’s really an illusion, it’s really an illusion. Then there’s nothing. But that would mean you are nothing. That would mean I am nothing! Which would mean definitions of nothing, are actually nothing. What would that mean? Nothing. Meaning would be illusory too.  Why and how could nothing need something to realize - NOTHING! ? In realizing nothing, something is illusory. “Why & how” are some thing.  Slippery slope. Very sneaky. 

Wait though, this would mean that even nothing is illusory - that death itself, was never something, and was never nothing. 

How could that be though, given you’re alive, right now?

???

My understanding is,..... that would be the Ego realizing its alive right now. The Ego can die, the True Self or Higher Self can't. 

[Nahm]

@Bauer1977 What does “die” mean?     Also, do you realize such things, or not?    What is the need to add this “ego which realizes things” into the mix? You’re the one realizing this, no?

Why add “souls” too?

You are the understanding, are you not? 

[Anton Rogachevski]

1 hour ago, Bauer1977 said:

I am looking to see how other people feel about the idea that Enlightenment is not just a case of Ego death, but also of soul death.

Where is this soul? Is the soul separate from ego? I suppose it's just another fancy title for the ego. Any separation is illusory. 

[ZZZZ]

I used to confuse myself with the idea of souls and higher souls, etc. but I think those are just tricky names the ego gives you so you let it continue to live conceptually in your mind, even when you think it has "died." You are fragmenting something that we have already given one name, the ego. Once you realize the true nature of things, this separation should appear fruitless.

[Pilgrim]

56 minutes ago, Bauer1977 said:

I guess another way of wording it would be to say do souls also realize that they are part of the illusion and become Enlightened when  the person reaches Enlightenment? I

What you are referring to as "soul" is the Self, that's what we truly are. I guess the soul knows already what it is, it was never a part of the illusion. But we are still identified with our ego, the self or however we want to call it. Therefore the soul is enlightened already, but we just cannot see it. 

[Flammable]

A lot of stories and concepts here  Look to what is in direct experience.

[Bauer1977]

7 hours ago, Mikael89 said:

I strongly disagree.

If God exists he fucked up bigtime . This whole creation is a gigantic mistake.

Or I guess it's more likely that the creator is a passionate sadist. Since I doubt it can create mistakes.

Do you really think that? It seems like a state of mind I had for several years when I feel as though my Ego was really fighting back on me for trying to reduce its impact on my perspective. It was a depression. It had a hold over me for 5 years before i finally managed to get past it. I don't feel that way anymore, but I can relate to what you have said