Is conscience and empathy a malleable thing?

[lmfao]

People who don't give a shit about other people and simultaneously get impatient about what they want can end up commiting hardcore crimes: murder, armed robbery, rape and etc. 

I was wondering, is this behaviour mostly an expression of stage red (and the stages below it)? Let's suppose that I was born in some lowly developed, primitive tribal culture with the exact genetics I have now. That version of me would end up being around stage purple/red. And if that was the case would I go around raping, murdering and looting like crazy? 

The reason I wonder this, is because if the answer to the last question I asked was "yes" then it would show that conscience and empathy is a malleable thing for people? Cuz someone at a low stage of development will do heinous shit but at a higher stage of development will almost completely change in how they see things? 

Edited November 30, 2018 by lmfao

[CreamCat]

I think the answer is complicated. My answer is I don't know.

Spiral Dynamics doesn't map psychopaths well. Also, you can have strong Red even if you are solidly Green.

Most adolescents go through Red stage, and most of them don't commit hardcore crimes.

Edited November 30, 2018 by CreamCat

[lmfao]

@CreamCat

20 minutes ago, CreamCat said:

Spiral Dynamics doesn't map psychopaths well. You can have strong Red even if you are solidly Green.

It wouldn't surprise me if what you said was true. 

I feel like I have a red "shadow" in me which partially motivated me to ask this question.

It makes me wonder what exactly "empathy" and "conscience" is. One way which might be useful of phrasing it is that if I was in stage purple my empathy would have a very small area of range (the tribe) but if I'm in Turqoise my empathy extends to all of reality itself. 

I find this topic interesting because I wonder how other people experience things compared to how I experience things. Like I wonder how if I process empathy is different from most people because I'm 1st percentile in agreeableness and perhaps mildly autistic (although no one usually picks that up). I wonder if I have or used to have some sociopathic traits as well. It is for that reason that I detect aspects of "zen devilry" in me. 

Edited November 30, 2018 by lmfao

[lmfao]

@CreamCat it's always been my impression that most people in the west go through stage red as very young children and quickly get absorbed into stage blue religion. At least that's what happened with me. But to be fair puberty and testosterone could make you red. 

Edited November 30, 2018 by lmfao

[Outer]

Nah you aren't 1st percentile agreeableness, that's B.S. nor have sociopath traits nor do you probably have minor autistic traits.

[lmfao]

@Outer

6 hours ago, Outer said:

Nah you aren't 1st percentile agreeableness, that's B.S. nor have sociopath traits nor do you probably have minor autistic traits.

I can't get rid of the video I've accidentally embedded below because it's on mobile. 

A lot of what you said might be right. I scored 1st percentile from understandmyself.com 

The description didn't really jive with me but I assumed that the description was just innacurate but the test and results were valid. If I do have autism though it is very discreet to the point where no one suspects or notices it except for me and one other person. I think that "autism" is just the excuse I use for not having the same temperament and interests as those around me.

 

 

Edited December 1, 2018 by lmfao

[Forestluv]

Children get conditioned into the predominant stage of their family and society. One can evolve above that, yet it takes work to rise above the average conscious level of one’s environment. Like crabs in a bucket. When a crab climbs up, the other crabs pull it back down.

[Equanimitize]

Fascinating and complex question. The world would change if we figured out a way to raise the consciousness of sociopaths and psychopaths. Their brain is running on outdated hardware which was probably very useful when there were sabertooth tigers running around. It's like trying to watch a movie with a VHS tape but all you have is a Macbook Pro.

[lmfao]

@Equanimitize

2 minutes ago, Equanimitize said:

Fascinating and complex question. The world would change if we figured out a way to raise the consciousness of sociopaths and psychopaths. Their brain is running on outdated hardware which was probably very useful when there were sabertooth tigers running around. It's like trying to watch a movie with a VHS tape but all you have is a Macbook Pro.

Yeah exactly. This comes back to the question of whether sociopaths and psychopaths are born or made and whether anything can be done about it. From the research I've seen online, sociopaths are made yet there are a small fraction of people who are born with low/zero empathy and are called psychopaths. On Quora you have self professed psychopaths answering questions and writing in detail what their emotions are like and how their mind works. One example is https://www.quora.com/profile/Athena-Walker . In conjunction to zero empathy and impulsivity, psychopaths also feel no anxiety and sadness generally (there are always degrees to which you are a psychopath as well). However, not all psychopaths end up becoming "evil doers" and neither is that the case for sociopaths. 

[Equanimitize]

If I had to throw shit on the wall, I'd say that they are made through environmental pressures more so then born with. A childs default position in times of trauma is flight or fight, when the child cannot do neither his brain almost goes into a default operating system. I would say that this is where ADHD, Sociopathy, Multi-personality disorder, etc. come from. Of course theres different levels, and spectrums, and several other factors but this is sort of my personal hypothesis of what goes on. I have had an intimate relationship with a sociopath, and at the time I had no idea that these people exist. I went from having a deep seated hate towards her all the way to complete empathy and everything in between-knowing that while she victimizes people she is also a victim. The sad part is these people a lot of times are not able to see the grave they are digging right next to them-what is blatantly obvious for the average human being is not so much for these people. 

[Your place at Heart]

I believe as Humans we developed capability of empathy and conscience in areas of our specifically limbic brain and I think its malleable because we retain our selfish reptillian brain which drives alot of our behavior and our neocortex rational brain that makes us rational adults. Which ever of these is more dominant shapes your behavior. Also add to it the archetypes and subconscious inherited from your past ancestors. If you want a true answer to your question and satisfying one. You have to look at it from the big picture

construct the big picture: What century you are talking about, what country, what's the dominant spiral dynamics stage of that country in that era, what's the individual personal spiral dynamic stage, what's the persons early childhood and how his conditioning led him to act in selfish and less-emapthic manners? does he have some areas of his brain, his neurotransmitters and neurochemicals at normal levels, is his blood level hormones normal? the people in his environment  are selfish? does he have bacterial or viral or fungi or any microorgasmic parasites influencing his behavior? lifestyle and his job?

The answer is yes you can be less-empathic and go crazy and kill and rape and loot and pillage and that's fine but to other people's egos you are the devil incarnate and if someone does that to you, it's fine to them but you would think they are devils.

I believe most people are good and pure because they are magnificent illusions of the eternal absolute self of the universe(Allah, god,Yhwh,brahman), they have well-functioning brain chemicals and brain structure with high empathic devices to help them in a sense survive socially and get along with others. They are humanistic and altruistic because of well-functioning limbic brain.

Edited December 1, 2018 by Your place at Heart

[Outer]

2 hours ago, lmfao said:

I can't get rid of the video I've accidentally embedded below because it's on mobile. 

A lot of what you said might be right. I scored 1st percentile from understandmyself.com 

Depends when you took the test, if it was after you knew about personality traits you are biased. Those tests are most useful for people who know nothing about personality. But for someone like you, someone who know you very well, to help you choose the options, can be a better option. Personality tests are ultimately a test of your view of yourself. Lots of factors alter the result.

Edited December 1, 2018 by Outer

[Talinn]

Let's say that hardcore psychopaths have a very limited ability to mold their empathy and increase their consciousness, but that we should still try because they are fellow human beings.

Let's say that they are better representatives of the "intelligent" aspect of the universe (albeit a subdued aspect of it) - they live and breathe this aspect of the universe in that they act more robotically and "without compassion" / "without regard to ego". In this narrow sense they act kinda like inanimate objects in a way - a meteor crashing into a planet does not care if it kills everyone on that planet.

Note though that they still obviously human and don't deserve to be treated worse. They are life, but act a bit like non-life.

Buddhists for example and psycopaths have some important similarities that are not to be overlooked. The main difference being that Buddhists arrived to their conclusions via discipline, whereas psycopaths have a subdued version of intelligence due primarily to their genetics.

 

Edited December 1, 2018 by Talinn

[CreamCat]

On average, psychopaths are not more intelligent or more successful than social people.

Most social people are programmed to act robotically most of the time through habits, too.

Most people are on auto pilot mode most of the time.

According to pieter hintjen's psyhchopath code, psychopaths have predatory emotions, and social people have social emotions in addition to predatory emotions. Understand psychopaths as (ir)rational predators. In the animal kingdom, predators usually do not waste their energy on stronger animals.

Be careful about when you are compassionate toward whom. A crocodile doesn't care if you feel compassion toward the crocodile when it chews your hand. A shark doesn't care if you are an animal rights activist when it chews your body.

Also, beware psychopaths who disguise themselves as professional victims. Psychopaths hide among various activists and bully vulnerable humans just to practice its power for study and fun. It's like a little lion learning to hunt animals through play.

Edited December 1, 2018 by CreamCat

[Talinn]

21 hours ago, CreamCat said:

Be careful about when you are compassionate toward whom. A crocodile doesn't care if you feel compassion toward the crocodile when it chews your hand. A shark doesn't care if you are an animal rights activist when it chews your body.

I know there's a line to walk there but it is best to walk it.

My brother hates the entire LGBT community and we had a falling out. I still try to send him christmas and birthday stuff because literally why not.

21 hours ago, CreamCat said:

On average, psychopaths are not more intelligent or more successful than social people.

I'm aware of this and I stand by my statement that they exhibit the intelligence facet better than they do the love/compassion facet of the universe. I think everyone has their own signature of each element of the universe despite it also being universal in a sense.

[CreamCat]

16 minutes ago, Talinn said:

I'm aware of this and I stand by my statement that they exhibit the intelligence facet better than they do the love/compassion facet of the universe. I think everyone has their own signature of each element of the universe despite it also being universal in a sense.

I think your definition of intelligence is quite narrow. Infinite intelligence is the entire order of the universe. Rocks demonstrate rock intelligence by being perfect at being rocks. Ants have ant intelligence. Human society has intelligence, too. The internet demonstrates its intelligence through its organization. There is intelligence in human genes. A company exhibits its corporate intelligence through clever organizational structures.

IQ is necessary but a tiny portion of intelligence.

Emotional intelligence is also intelligence.

Also, psychopaths are better representatives of predator intelligence rather than those of IQ. They are not emotionless creatures. They feel predator emotions far more strongly than social people. They can be manipulated by pushing predator emotions. Think of psychopaths as such predators as lions, crocodiles, or sharks.

I recommend watching Leo's video on infinite intelligence.

 

Edited December 2, 2018 by CreamCat

[Talinn]

I actually compared psyopath's intelligence's to meteor's (rock's) intelligence; I was at no point referencing IQ.

 

[Equanimitize]

On 12/1/2018 at 1:37 AM, CreamCat said:

Be careful about when you are compassionate toward whom. A crocodile doesn't care if you feel compassion toward the crocodile when it chews your hand. A shark doesn't care if you are an animal rights activist when it chews your body.

Also, beware psychopaths who disguise themselves as professional victims. Psychopaths hide among various activists and bully vulnerable humans just to practice its power for study and fun. It's like a little lion learning to hunt animals through play.

Yes I 100% agree with this. I'd also like to add that the more meta you go, the more you realize that they are in a lot of ways a "victim" themselves. The more we can realize that, and if we understood everything that brought them to that point it would all make sense. Understanding leads to less resistance, which leads to less suffering. You can have compassion, but also set and protect your boundaries fiercely. 

[Wyze]

3 hours ago, Equanimitize said:

Yes I 100% agree with this. I'd also like to add that the more meta you go, the more you realize that they are in a lot of ways a "victim" themselves. The more we can realize that, and if we understood everything that brought them to that point it would all make sense. Understanding leads to less resistance, which leads to less suffering. You can have compassion, but also set and protect your boundaries fiercely. 

I think in the case of children raised in narcissistic family dynamics; i would say your statement is true. Those children often become narcissists or have various degree of narcissistic behaviour due to modelling and survival. But they may or may not develop prosocial value system later on.

However, there are individuals whose brain function; purely biological that have gone haywire since birth or some sort of accident. They did not develop a prosocial recognition, and cannot develop a prosocial value system. I think this is the true definition of a psychopath.

I agree on the fact that boundaries is probably the best defense.

[Equanimitize]

@Wyze Makes sense to me, thank you. Do you think psychopaths have the capability to become pro-social? Or do we not have the technology to do this yet?