The missing part in Spiral Dynamics

[Anton Rogachevski]

I would like to, if I may do so, add another layer of detail and complexity to this model. I can't help but observe how some people are just born into their level on the spiral. I think it has something to do with physical evolution. The hypothesis is that not all people are equally evolved, and are therefore locked into one stage.

I can see it very clearly that "orange" people are more "carnivore", even their physicality resembles that of a predator, the cold eyes, the pure interest in nothing beyond material success. When I see one I feel stressed, I could never ever imagine such a being "magically" transform into Green, not in a million years. Imagine trump doing yoga and you'll see what I mean. They are obviously from the "warrior" cast.

While on the other hand I see "green" people and their physicality resembles that of a herbivore. Round face, bigger eyes, different face structure all together. They are peaceful, friendly, open, emotional. One could never picture them as the money hungry wolves from orange.

I think you got the idea. You can add more examples of this.

 

Try the exercise:
 

Imagine theses people getting hungry for money:

 

 

Imagine this person doing yoga or meditating :

[Sahil Pandit]

@Anton Rogachevski

[Anton Rogachevski]

@Sahil Pandit Amazing!

[Sahil Pandit]

@Anton Rogachevski Great thread post. I noticed this all the time, but never came up with making post about it, thanks!

Some people have such a pulling aura, radiating love, it melts the willing ego right away...

While others are so rigid and neurotic, it's hard to be around them, let alone look at them directly. 

I'd like to add, the "carnivores" people often times treat life as a zero sum game, while the others see the limits of this and transcend that paradigm. 

[Sahil Pandit]

@JustinS the first picture is precisely how i imagine you to be in real life in 25 years 

[Arkandeus]

These changes are very possible and perhaps you are finally noticing how consciousness forms physical reality

I have been with people that in my presence I saw their face and eyes change from closed and material focused to open and heart-focused

If buddha did it to the worst criminals so can we

[EternalForest]

Seems you're using the model to judge others, I took a look at this list of enlightened people and they all look different:

https://www.poehm.com/en/list-of-enlightened-people/

[Anton Rogachevski]

@EternalForest Yes they are different, yet there are some commonalities. Obviously my pursuit is to better understand the model and not to judge. The emotions I feel are not in my control obviously, but rather instinctual.   

[Anton Rogachevski]

@Arkandeus Sadly I've never seen anyone change, not in behavior, nor in appearance. I can't help but recall what House always said: "People never change."

Sometimes I fear it might be true.

[EternalForest]

@Anton Rogachevski Oh definitely, I'm positive what you're noticing and the emotions associated are instinctual. I, too, have hundreds of instinctual impulses a day I don't have control over. You can't make them stop, you can only learn how to respond to them.

[Elisabeth]

This is totally absurd. 

Yeah, you can often tell from someone's mimics and overall behavior how emotionally developed they are. 

But that's not inborn, man. 

I can imagine Trump doing yoga... 50 years ago. There's little hope for him now, because of all his mental habits. It's the culture and your family that originally shapes you, and than there are the random things you learn, and your curiosity, and whether your environment was healthy enough not to kill that inner drive to develop, that make the difference between moving on or not. 

You're not adding complexity, you're oversimplifying. 

Edited November 29, 2018 by Elisabeth

[lmfao]

@Anton Rogachevski Everybody is born with different traits. Some people are born with naturally high levels of empathy, others with naturally low. Some are born disagreeable whilst some are born agreeable. Some are born more creative, some are born less neurotic, some are born more conscientious and etc. 

So it is that someones deeply embedded traits play a huge role in how someone progresses along the spiral. Since I feel my own particular personality to be confusing I am reluctant to think that the categories "warrior" and "herbivore" are very useful. I feel like most people within these categories are there because of their upbringing and this honestly seems to be the case in the people I talk to.

Very rarely does someone have a very strong biological fixation on either of these categories. Genuine psychopaths (which are rare) are an example of people fixated on the "warrior" category. 

Throwing away whatever models you have of spiral dynamics, people born of all traits can increase their level of consciousness, cease suffering and become enlightened. Enlightened people don't have to operate on a shared set of values and ethics as other enlightened people. 

-------------------—---------------------

I myself have charecterisitcs of both the categories "warrior" and "herbivore" and so I find it hard to think there is a large dichotomy between these two things. I'm the type of person who doesn't care too much about having money, power , fame, or control over other people but I wouldn't feel guilty  whatsoever about pursuing those things if the circumstances were right. I'm actually quite passionate about helping the needy and disadvantaged yet there are many situations where I don't care if the pursuit of what I want "hurts" other people. I have mild autism and am supposed to be unempathetic to people yet I can also be extremely sensitive and aware of the emotional environment around. 

Another thing to realise is that a "warrior" has some people they love and are kind to and a "herbivore" will have some people they absolutely loathe and are hostile towards. Everyone exhibits behaviour which might be considered self-contradictory from very crude levels of analysis of their behaviour. 

 

[Cudin]

Epigenetics.

As one evolves, it starts changing habits - e.g. quit smoking, gambling, competing, having a better diet, etc. That, in turn, manifests physical changes in the body and mind. We are very complex systems, but are totally limited and conditioned by our environment. That's why the SD book focus a lot on Life Conditions.

I dare to say that our thoughts also model the way our bodies change throughout our lives, and our thoughts, of course, are heavily influenced by our culture, family and all sorts of environmental factors. 

 Our biotypes are not hard-coded in the moment we are conceived in the womb. We are the result of our genetics, plus environmental influences.

http://www.drmichaeljoyner.com/identical-twins-genetic-destiny/

 

 

[JustinS]

@Sahil Pandit  Interesting! 

[Anton Rogachevski]

17 hours ago, Cudin said:

Epigenetics.

As one evolves, it starts changing habits - e.g. quit smoking, gambling, competing, having a better diet, etc. That, in turn, manifests physical changes in the body and mind. We are very complex systems, but are totally limited and conditioned by our environment. That's why the SD book focus a lot on Life Conditions.

I dare to say that our thoughts also model the way our bodies change throughout our lives, and our thoughts, of course, are heavily influenced by our culture, family and all sorts of environmental factors. 

 Our biotypes are not hard-coded in the moment we are conceived in the womb. We are the result of our genetics, plus environmental influences.

http://www.drmichaeljoyner.com/identical-twins-genetic-destiny/

 

 

This might be the case. Evolution doesn't stop at birth.

[okulele]

What if I told you that the body actually changes as you evolve.

[Anton Rogachevski]

2 hours ago, okulele said:

What if I told you that the body actually changes as you evolve.

I'm afraid I can't take your word for it, since I have never seen anyone change, not in behavior nor in appearance. 

[outlandish]

I know what you mean, but be careful with this line. On the one hand we can indeed be very good at extrapolating rich information from reading peoples faces, but on the other hand you really can't judge a book by it's cover.

22 hours ago, Elisabeth said:

You're not adding complexity, you're oversimplifying. 

I tend to agree with Elisabeth here. You've got to give people a fair chance and not try to simplify reality by judging someone by their appearance. This is exactly how racism works, but here you're looking at a different set of characteristics than skin colour. The information you are reading from looking at someone's face is coming from deep seated stereotypes. 

If your initial reading *is* accurate, there is always the potential for someone to change, and there's also always going to be a lot more nuance to it. I wouldn't bet on trump getting on the yoga mat either, but you just don't know.

Let's not turn spiral dynamics into another way to judge and separate people. Rather, let's use it as a tool for growth. It's a model of reality, not reality itself. No one's *actually* on any particular stage of the spiral. 

[Anton Rogachevski]

1 hour ago, outlandish said:

I know what you mean, but be careful with this line. On the one hand we can indeed be very good at extrapolating rich information from reading peoples faces, but on the other hand you really can't judge a book by it's cover.

I tend to agree with Elisabeth here. You've got to give people a fair chance and not try to simplify reality by judging someone by their appearance. This is exactly how racism works, but here you're looking at a different set of characteristics than skin colour. The information you are reading from looking at someone's face is coming from deep seated stereotypes. 

If your initial reading *is* accurate, there is always the potential for someone to change, and there's also always going to be a lot more nuance to it. I wouldn't bet on trump getting on the yoga mat either, but you just don't know.

Let's not turn spiral dynamics into another way to judge and separate people. Rather, let's use it as a tool for growth. It's a model of reality, not reality itself. No one's *actually* on any particular stage of the spiral. 

All I do is remove naive notions of people magically transforming up stages. It's better to be realistic. It's also useful in understanding why things really don't change much, and have a realistic expectation, being more accepting of people, not thinking they should go up stages and be wise all of the sudden.  

[Nexeternity]

Practice forgiving, loving, and appreciating the bad guys