The Illusion of Free Will, is life scripted?

[Bauer1977]

10 hours ago, purerogue said:

Bauer1977

Again , my comment answers your question, it just takes some thought process to understand it, it is very difficult thing to comprehend , because you have to look from few points at the same time .

Your question itself is pointless to you, simply you finding answer for this question serves no meaning to you, it has 0 meaning for you .

It does not matter which answer you chose , both serve nothing.

If you would ask how  one , or other side works without you being attached to question, then it makes sense, but as soon as you attach you , it loses all its meaning. 

 

I understand what you are trying to say. But to me, and from my current perspective you need to understand that you look as though you are talking in riddles. You seem to understand that I don't understand what you are trying to tell me, but you still limit your explanation to that riddle. I find this trap appears all the time in the spiritual process. The explanations from a particular perspective are not relevant to that of another. Maybe your insight makes total sense to you, and is the answer you need. But it makes no sense to me at all. I am looking for a perspective and explanation that is in tune with my own understanding.

The comment earlier in the chain here regarding quantum mechanics fits for me. I studied quantum mechanics 15 or 16 years ago. Long before I ever encountered the conundrum of free will. I can easily  see a viable relationship there. And that is where the direction my investigation will now go. So many people conclude that the investigation ultimately loses its value and is therefore pointless, but the investigation is the purpose. I understand that the day may likely come when all perspective is lost and all "work" will have seemed to have been pointless.... but until the day, for me the investigation is the vehicle needed to reach that point.

Edited November 29, 2018 by Bauer1977
spelling error

[WindInTheLeaf]

56 minutes ago, Bauer1977 said:

I understand what you are trying to say. But to me, and from my current perspective you need to understand that you look as though you are talking in riddles. You seem to understand that I don't understand what you are trying to tell me, but you still limit your explanation to that riddle. I find this trap appears all the time in the spiritual process. The explanations from a particular perspective are not relevant to that of another. Maybe your insight makes total sense to you, and is the answer you need. But it makes no sense to me at all. I am looking for a perspective and explanation that is in tune with my own understanding.

The comment earlier in the chain here regarding quantum mechanics fits for me. I studied quantum mechanics 15 or 16 years ago. Long before I ever encountered the conundrum of free will. I can easily  see a viable relationship there. And that is where the direction my investigation will now go. So many people conclude that the investigation ultimately loses its value and is therefore pointless, but the investigation is the purpose. I understand that the day may likely come when all perspective is lost and all "work" will have seemed to have been pointless.... but until the day, for me the investigation is the vehicle needed to reach that point.

Truth is a riddle and the journey is the destination. 

[Joseph Maynor]

13 hours ago, Strikr said:

the perfect enlightement is being an adult-child.

not a child.

love all the gift of god with will.

nature is will, not knowing is growth. after growth there is growth

Did you write that?  I assume those are your words.  If so, good job!  I think your intuition is pointed in the right direction. 

Edited November 29, 2018 by Joseph Maynor

[Leo Gura]

The ego is not in control. But life is also not scripted.

It's some weird 3rd category of thing. Something mystical, ineffable, and non-logical.

[Forestluv]

12 minutes ago, WindInTheLeaf said:

Truth is a riddle and the journey is the destination. 

That is beautiful, poetic. ? ? 

[Bauer1977]

Thanks again for all your input guys. I feel I have better understanding now than I did prior to this comment stream.

Cheers

[Consilience]

Has anyone considered the possibility yhat all causality is an illusion. 

 

For example, NOW is the only moment that exists, so how could something cause something else? Like seriously. Causality necessarily implies a past, but there is literally no such thing as the past, there is only right NOW.

 

Moreover, this also means that randomness does not make much sense either. For example, randomness implies “could have been different.” But “could have been” implies past which we’re already established doesn’t make sense.

 

In this light, causality, which is a necessary component of determinism, doesnt make much sense. But nor does randomness or probabilities. Using probabilities as a conceptual framework for QM works on paper, but does reality in and of itself operate off of probabilites? How could it if there is no past, no future and therefore no possible “could have beens.” 

 

Anyways Im not entirely convinced of all this but just more food for thought. It’s not as simple as “no free will” or “free will” though, that’s for damn sure. 

Edited November 29, 2018 by Consilience

[Leo Gura]

14 minutes ago, Consilience said:

Has anyone considered the possibility yhat all causality is an illusion.

That is indeed the case at the highest levels of consciousness.

[StephenK]

@Leo Gura I find that seeing causality in the manifest allows me to let go of the notion of self ever so slightly. Is the contemplation of causality useful as a spiritual practice, or is it a distraction? 

[ground]

6 hours ago, StephenK said:

Is the contemplation of causality useful as a spiritual practice, or is it a distraction? 

If causality is understood as determinism then the path to liberation is destroyed. If causality is understood as conditionality then it mirrors the emptiness of all phenomena which actually is liberation.

[TheAvatarState]

This has been a great discussion so far! I just wanted to add something I've been contemplating lately.

I believe that the illusion of choice is actually a self-deception mechanism (like one of @Leo Gura 's 60+). The idea that there is no choice is a great threat to the ego mind and its survival, because feeling in control is something it requires and seeks. 

Now, like many of the self-deception techniques, this one especially is highly exploitable (by the Devil, as well as for good). For instance, (positive example) in the movie "The Matrix," Morpheus gives Neo a "choice" of the blue or red pill, knowing that Neo's egoic mind NEEDED to feel like it had a choice at that time in order to be invested and make the right choice. You see, just the very idea of oneself having freewill alters the playing field in various ways. This is really the devil's trick! Any adolescent knows that when they gained more freedom in their teenage years, they started making a LOT of bad choices. "Freedom." When you're "free" to do whatever you want, without the right guidance your ego is allowed to take over. It clouds your judgment. What's actually going on here is that when you make a choice, you must create a rift in the present moment, play out different timelines of how you THINK these various decisions will play out (illusion more prone to corruption), and often resort to reason to help you decide (without knowing it's heavily reliant on emotions and ego). Another interesting phenomena is when you get lost in the thought loop of how you thought about how you were thinking, and so on (like Princess Bride). This allows lots of time for your ego to take over. Think of "free will" as a sleight of hand trick the ego uses to add another foggy layer between you and the present moment. Free will creates a strange loop of thought that one can get lost in. Why? It's simple, because free will DOES NOT EXIST. IT CAN'T. It's fundamentally an output from which there was no input. A "random" button of the mind. The fact of the matter is that there always needs to be an input of some kind, some direction. And of course, the conclusion we have all arrived at is that that direction is completely outside our control. You can't actually think about how you are choosing. You either live in the present moment and listen to heart and intuition, or you muddy the waters with choices (and other delusions of the mind). Ultimately you didn't have a choice in how you approached the situation. 

Now, I don't believe that we live in a completely deterministic world. I agree with Leo that there's some 3rd state of being that hasn't been talked about yet, something mystical and post-rational. The nature of reality is a strange loop, with the guiding, creational hand being "infinite intelligence." Is infinite intelligence predictable and causal? It apparently has a plan for human evolution, and it's probably going towards it in the "best" way possible. I don't know. When I get that deep, it stops making sense and seemingly contradicts itself. Those are some of the questions I have, hopefully some of you fine folk could shed some light on them? 

If you made it this far, thanks for reading! Peace.  

[Flammable]

1 hour ago, TheAvatarState said:

Now, I don't believe that we live in a completely deterministic world. I agree with Leo that there's some 3rd state of being that hasn't been talked about yet, something mystical and post-rational. The nature of reality is a strange loop, with the guiding, creational hand being "infinite intelligence." Is infinite intelligence predictable and causal? It apparently has a plan for human evolution, and it's probably going towards it in the "best" way possible.

If only the present moment, the NOW, exists, then there is no distinction between determinism and free will. Let's look at this example, people often say that something is random, but how does that even distinguish from something being pre-determined? Even if everything was pre-determined, the ego does not seem to know its future outcome, so it is the same as saying that everything happening is random/free will. As the ego never knows what this pre-determined course actually is, it only has what is currently happening and how it interprets it.

Thus, even from an egoic perspective the duality between free will and determinism is slightly flawed, but from a non-duality perspective where only NOW exists - there is no distinction between the two as both of them require a past and a future to be considered, but their NOW, their PRESENT MOMENT, manifests in the same way.

Hope I have been moderately clear of what I wanted to express. Cheers to all for this lovely thread.

Edited November 29, 2018 by Flammable

[TheAvatarState]

@Flammable ok, I think I understand what you're saying, but I don't think it's that simplistic. Yes, from a non dual perspective, the duality of free will and determinism break down. But what are we left with? The only way, logically, for the world to operate would be completely deterministic, unless there was an unimaginable force outside the system to alter it. But in this closed system of infinite void, there can only be one outcome given the state of infinite intelligence... the "best" one from the vantage point of the Force. There is NOTHING random in the universe. Random is a concept that cannot exist. For every action there is an equal and opposite reaction. Yada yada yada.

BUT, that's the only outcome if the universe was linear and rational. Completely deterministic. But most of us here know that's not the case. Reality IS a strange loop. Infinite intelligence created itself... out of void. Nothing. There's nothing rational about that. Time is not linear, it is absolutely bendable. I wouldn't have believed it unless I experienced it myself. Quantum mechanics tells us that there's nothing here but probability fields, and that the very "fabric" of the universe can shape and mold to anything it wants with enough force. I think that's at least pretty close to the truth. Seems to line up with my consciousness work and mystical experiences so far...   

[Bauer1977]

17 hours ago, Yousef said:

Could you explain to me why it's so obvious that time is an illusion and there's only now?

I can't speak to the comments of others on this issue. But for me, I know for certain that time is an illusion because I have had many premonition dreams in my life, mostly as a child. I spent most of my adult life trying to find an explanation for them that made sense and felt right to me. I read the Conversations with God series, and the idea of premonition dreams and time is covered very well. I contemplated on that info for several days, and that ultimately led to or triggered an enlightened experience of realization. It became so clear to me that time was an illusion. I was so in the moment that my body was frozen. And I just keep thinking "there is no where to be, I am already here. There is nothing to do, it's all already done." and those realizations blew my mind... figuratively, but sort of literally as well. As a result of this experience, for me, the illusion of time is now an undeniable truth. I know it doesn't mean that you know understand, but hopefully it helps you have confidence in that the correct path for your search can lead in that direction.

That is why I started to really consider the idea of free will. I have had premonition dreams, and I know that time is an illusion. So how does free will fit into that? But I also know that my premonition dreams were scenes that played out in reality within a few days every time. Never longer than a week at the most. So I do feel there is a limit to whats set with regard to time within the realm of experience. Its an interesting topic for sure.

Edited November 30, 2018 by Bauer1977
spelling errors

[ground]

17 hours ago, Yousef said:

Could you explain to me why it's so obvious that time is an illusion and there's only now?

that view is similar to the view 'Colors are an illusion and there is only blue'

[Bauer1977]

OK everyone, I have come to a conclusion that seems to satisfy my curiosity to this query. I have contemplated on it, and it appears the "free will" piece to the overall puzzle of everything that I am working on has been put into its place. This satisfies my query, that does not mean it will satisfy yours of course.... Here is what I have concluded:

Free will is in fact an illusion. However, the Ego does still possess will power which does give it at least some "control", although very limited. The best metaphor I came up with while in a state contemplation is that of a garden hose. Consider our lives to be controlled in a similar fashion that a garden hose controls water. The amount of water, and the speed and direction at which the water goes through the garden hose is controlled by the hose or the tap. However, the interaction and movement between water droplets within the hose is not (quantum mechanics). The hose does not have complete control over how the water splashes and shifts around inside the hose while travelling through it.

I feel that as people we may not have a choice in what we do, but we do have some control over our response to that choice. Take this example, the issue of free will was eating me up. I couldn't rest until resolving this matter to a degree that satisfied my need. I googled alot of articles, I read a book and joined this forum and started this thread in search of that relief. Those were options I controlled. I could have just joined this site and read an article, but not read the book. The issue could have been resolved without the book, as really the articles covered all the same info so it didn't actually help to resolve the matter. I didn't pay for it, I found it online. The fact that I read that book affected nothing and no one else within the experience (the illusion) in any way. Yet, I did read it as a choice in pursuit of the answer. It was an act of will power, but the fact that the problem was eating me up while it was without a solution, was clearly not free will in any way. The problem landed on my plate, what I did to resolve it shows that I did at least have a small amount of control.

That's it.... thoughts?

 

Edited November 30, 2018 by Bauer1977
spelling error

[Haumea2018]

The illusion of free will is another way of saying the illusion of being the doer, a separate self.

What has "free will"? The illusion of "separate self."

The concept doesn't apply if there's no illusion of separate self.  It's a category error.

It's not a yes/no, it's a N/A.

Edited November 30, 2018 by Haumea2018

[ground]

16 minutes ago, Haumea2018 said:

The illusion of free will is another way of saying the illusion of being the doer, a separate self.

What has "free will"? The illusion of "separate self."

Saying "I am the doer" and "I have free will" does not necessarily have to be based on the belief in self as truly existing. Why? Because saying so is merely conventional language and valid in this context.

 

16 minutes ago, Haumea2018 said:

The concept doesn't apply if there's no illusion of separate self.

That is not correctly expressed. Why? Because you are kind of cherry picking if you assert that your concept "The concept doesn't apply if there's no illusion of separate self. " would apply but the concepts "there is a doer" or "there is free will" would not if there's no illusion of self.

Actually it is unclear what "a concept applies" does mean and whether there are different qualities of "a concept applies" depending on whether there is concomitant belief in a truly existing self or no such belief when saying "a concept applies".

 

Edited November 30, 2018 by ground

[ground]

34 minutes ago, Bauer1977 said:

... thoughts?

Thoughts? Thoughts come and go

[Haumea2018]

Quote

Saying "I am the doer" and "I have free will" does not necessarily have to be based on the belief in self as truly existing. Why? Because saying so is merely conventional language and valid in this context.

I take this context to be the discussion of the philosophical concept of Free Will.

Otherwise it's meaningless, since "free will" in conventional language can mean different things at different levels of analysis.

You can't answer a question about some free-floating and vague concept in conventional language.

 

Edited November 30, 2018 by Haumea2018