The Illusion of Free Will, is life scripted?

[ground]

18 minutes ago, Haumea2018 said:

I take this context to be the discussion of the philosophical concept of Free Will.

Otherwise it's meaningless, since "free will" in conventional language can mean different things at different levels of analysis.

You can't answer a question about some free-floating and vague concept in conventional language.

Well, how does - from your perspective - the philosophical concept of Free Will differ from everyday's concept of Free Will?

E.g. if I walk after a person and see that this persons drops money. Then it is subject to my free will, or in other words it is my decision,  to either pick up the money and keep it or to notify the person that he/she has dropped money and give it to him/her.

Therefore I have free will, both conventionally spoken and from a philosophical point of view which of course is equally expressed in conventional language.

Edited November 30, 2018 by ground

[Haumea2018]

Quote

E.g. if I walk after a person and see that this persons drops money. Then it is subject to my free will, or in other words it is my decision,  to either pick up the money and keep it or to notify the person that he/she has dropped money and give it to him/her.

Therefore I have free will, both conventionally spoken and from a philosophical point of view.

First of all, there are more than two options.

Second of all, you're taking all kinds of ontological assumptions for granted.

Even forgetting about self-concept, there's no reason to believe the decision isn't fated and that the options aren't an illusion.  You would have to be entirely conscious of the machinery of your decision-making and...you're just not.

Of course, as I said, it's kinda hard to forget self-concept in this context, since all language imbeds it implicitly and it is not clear what this "context" is.  My best guess is as good as yours.  Simply put, I don't see that this is necessarily inclusive of a non-dual context philosophically.  The reason why is that a non-dual consciousness has no need of framing of such a philosophical concept.  So I must conclude that it is the product of dualistic consciousness. A non-dual consciousness isn't seeking to answer that which it has no need of questioning.

The basic question is, to reiterate: does the concept of Free Will have ontological assumptions built into it and what are they?

If not, explain why not.

 

 

Edited November 30, 2018 by Haumea2018

[ground]

25 minutes ago, Haumea2018 said:

First of all, there are more than two options.

Ok, e.g. I could also give the money to a third party .... nevertheless this all is covered by free will.

 

25 minutes ago, Haumea2018 said:

Second of all, you're taking all kinds of ontological assumptions for granted.

No. How can you know simply through reading my words? Maybe ontological assumptions are your bias? I for my part can apply words without ontological assumptions.

25 minutes ago, Haumea2018 said:

Even forgetting about self-concept, there's no reason to belief the decision isn't fated and that the options aren't an illusion. 

Even forgetting about self-concept, there's no reason to belief the decision is fated and that the options aren't validly expressed through language.

 

25 minutes ago, Haumea2018 said:

You would have to be entirely conscious of the machinery of your decision-making and...you're just not.

I have several options and freely decide for one. What is there to be "entirely conscious of the machinery of my decision-making"? See, you cannot assess an alleged machinery of my decision-making. How would you do that?  If you believe you can then simply because you believe in your philosophical concepts as truths. But your concepts cannot contact my decision making. Why should the mere concepts of your philosophy be more reliable than other concepts?

 

 

Edited November 30, 2018 by ground

[Haumea2018]

Quote

No. How can you know simply through reading my words? Maybe ontological assumptions are your bias? I for my part can apply words without ontological assumptions.

If your contention is that language has no ontological assumptions, then you are certainly free to believe that.

Maybe it is my bias, but in that case I'm in pretty good company.

If you want to posit that language is independent of or preceding consciousness, then you go right ahead.

I tend to think that meaningless sounds and symbols are given meaning by consciousness.

Nothing magical about a bunch of characters on the screen.

As an example: read this and then tell me there are no ontological assumptions in the Hebrew language.

 

Edited November 30, 2018 by Haumea2018

[Bauer1977]

Check out this article. It offers almost as much understanding as a person needs to understand free will as an illusion. I do understand that this may not be enough to settle the debate for everyone. I think previous spiritual experiences and a certain knowledge level of spiritual concepts and various sciences play a part as well in how believable it is for any individual. But the evidence presented here is very compelling.

The Illusion of Choice_ Free Will and Determinism.pdf

Edited November 30, 2018 by Bauer1977
spelling error

[ground]

6 minutes ago, Haumea2018 said:

If your contention is that language has no ontological assumptions, then you are certainly free to believe that.

Language is either concatenation of signs/forms (writing - seeing) or sounds (speaking -  hearing). The meanings of those concatenation arise in the mind of the writer and/or seer/reader or speaker and/or hearer and so do all concomitant assumptions.

 

6 minutes ago, Haumea2018 said:

Maybe it is my bias, but in that case I'm in pretty good company.

Sure.

 

6 minutes ago, Haumea2018 said:

If you want to posit that language is independent of or preceding consciousness, then you go right ahead.

No, I do not posit this. What I posit however is that there are different modes of consciousness of which some impute concomitant assumptions whereas other modes are free from these imputations.

 

6 minutes ago, Haumea2018 said:

I tend to think that meaningless sounds and symbols are given meaning by consciousness.

Nothing magical about a bunch of characters on the screen.

So here we seem to agree (s. above)

 

[Haumea2018]

25 minutes ago, Haumea2018 said:

As an example: read this and then tell me there are no ontological assumptions in the Hebrew language.

Free from imputations? Sounds like a pretty extraordinary claim.

The imputations appear to be built into the structure of the language itself.

Edited November 30, 2018 by Haumea2018

[Flix]

2 hours ago, Bauer1977 said:

That's it.... thoughts?

 

My thoughts about the topic from a while ago:

I do believe everything that is happening in the physical world (including thoughts, mystical states, getting enlightened, ...) can be explained by laws of physics and is therefore not pre-scripted, but also not "free", but running on its own.

That doesn't contradict that there is a more fundamental layer of being/consciousness "behind" it all that you can become conscious of, but this "becoming conscious" (= reprogramming your brain [physically] towards "more" consciousness) also happens in the physical world.

Edited November 30, 2018 by Flix

[ground]

12 minutes ago, Haumea2018 said:

Free from imputations? Sounds like a pretty extraordinary claim.

The context was "concomitant assumptions" as you mentioned "ontological assumptions" above. Of course in order to understand linguistic expressions, i.e. the conventional meaning of a term, in the context of communication this meaning has to be imputed to the empty signs or sounds. But concomitant assumptions like the "ontological assumptions" you mentioned depend on the mode of consciousness. These concomitant assumptions usually kind of merge with the mere conventional meaning if imputed by a conscisouness

Edited November 30, 2018 by ground

[Flammable]

@ground @Haumea2018 You all need to read Thought as a System by David Bohm  

Edited November 30, 2018 by Flammable

[Bauer1977]

3 hours ago, Flammable said:

@ground @Haumea2018 You all need to read Thought as a System by David Bohm  

Do you have a link?

[Flammable]

@Bauer1977  Nope, but a friend told me that you can find it online, so you can give a quick search.

[Anton Rogachevski]

Free will exists inside of the illusion, and that fact doesn't make it less important. We have no other place to live, but inside the illusion (awake or not).

Being awake helps in reducing suffering and worry, but it won't change the fact that you are still in a dream.

It's not a complete freedom, but it does offer many predetermined choices.

Your need to be certain needs to be let go of, if you wish to reach a higher knowledge. Doubt is a key ingredient in awakening. Being all too certain only means you believe your own delusions. 

Edited November 30, 2018 by Anton Rogachevski

[Bauer1977]

5 hours ago, Anton Rogachevski said:

Free will exists inside of the illusion, and that fact doesn't make it less important. We have no other place to live, but inside the illusion (awake or not).

Being awake helps in reducing suffering and worry, but it won't change the fact that you are still in a dream.

It's not a complete freedom, but it does offer many predetermined choices.

Your need to be certain needs to be let go of, if you wish to reach a higher knowledge. Doubt is a key ingredient in awakening. Being all too certain only means you believe your own delusions. 

I think I can agree with that. Thanks for taking the time to add your thoughts

[TheAvatarState]

20 hours ago, Bauer1977 said:

OK everyone, I have come to a conclusion that seems to satisfy my curiosity to this query. I have contemplated on it, and it appears the "free will" piece to the overall puzzle of everything that I am working on has been put into its place. This satisfies my query, that does not mean it will satisfy yours of course.... Here is what I have concluded:

Free will is in fact an illusion. However, the Ego does still possess will power which does give it at least some "control", although very limited. The best metaphor I came up with while in a state contemplation is that of a garden hose. Consider our lives to be controlled in a similar fashion that a garden hose controls water. The amount of water, and the speed and direction at which the water goes through the garden hose is controlled by the hose or the tap. However, the interaction and movement between water droplets within the hose is not (quantum mechanics). The hose does not have complete control over how the water splashes and shifts around inside the hose while travelling through it.

I feel that as people we may not have a choice in what we do, but we do have some control over our response to that choice. Take this example, the issue of free will was eating me up. I couldn't rest until resolving this matter to a degree that satisfied my need. I googled alot of articles, I read a book and joined this forum and started this thread in search of that relief. Those were options I controlled. I could have just joined this site and read an article, but not read the book. The issue could have been resolved without the book, as really the articles covered all the same info so it didn't actually help to resolve the matter. I didn't pay for it, I found it online. The fact that I read that book affected nothing and no one else within the experience (the illusion) in any way. Yet, I did read it as a choice in pursuit of the answer. It was an act of will power, but the fact that the problem was eating me up while it was without a solution, was clearly not free will in any way. The problem landed on my plate, what I did to resolve it shows that I did at least have a small amount of control.

That's it.... thoughts?

 

I would be very skeptical of suddenly coming to a conclusion about a problem such as this a day after posting a topic, and after reading a single book and throwing some thoughts around. What is that, a combined few hours of work? You think that's it? You say you're satisfied... WHO is satisfied? Certainly not the force that compelled you to research this in the first place! That's not possible. You've settled for an easy middle ground where your ego and your true self are both partially satisfied. "At least I can't say I didn't search." But on the other hand, "at least I still have some control." Your journey is far from over my friend. You're going to be eaten up on the inside even more now. Don't deny it. 

You've admitted that you don't have control over "the force" that compelled you to come here, yet you said you were in complete control of your egoic mind and how you interpreted it. Think about that. That is to deny that these parts are interlinked and part of the same system. When they obviously are.

Be careful of judging your previous actions from the lens of the present. We all know hindsight is 20/20. But in the moment you chose to read the book, you had no clue if it contained more information that might have been helpful to you! You had no choice but to read it. If we rewinded time millions of times over, you would have bought that book every. single. time. You getting this? 

Did I have any control on writing this response? No. I saw your message and knew I had to shake you up. Did I have any choice on how to word this, or how I chose to be harsh and blunt? No. This is all calculated on how I feel best to respond given my current knowledge. This is not meant to overwhelm or belittle you in any way whatsoever. I believe that this is what you need to hear, and I can't explain it. 

Quantum mechanics tells us that there are nothing but probability fields, and things only "come" into existence when observed. You used the example of the interaction of water molecules. What is the force that decides how things come together? Do you think you egoic chimp brain had any power over that? Fuck no. Get real.  

  

[Bauer1977]

12 hours ago, TheAvatarState said:

I would be very skeptical of suddenly coming to a conclusion about a problem such as this a day after posting a topic, and after reading a single book and throwing some thoughts around. What is that, a combined few hours of work? You think that's it? You say you're satisfied... WHO is satisfied? Certainly not the force that compelled you to research this in the first place! That's not possible. You've settled for an easy middle ground where your ego and your true self are both partially satisfied. "At least I can't say I didn't search." But on the other hand, "at least I still have some control." Your journey is far from over my friend. You're going to be eaten up on the inside even more now. Don't deny it. 

You've admitted that you don't have control over "the force" that compelled you to come here, yet you said you were in complete control of your egoic mind and how you interpreted it. Think about that. That is to deny that these parts are interlinked and part of the same system. When they obviously are.

Be careful of judging your previous actions from the lens of the present. We all know hindsight is 20/20. But in the moment you chose to read the book, you had no clue if it contained more information that might have been helpful to you! You had no choice but to read it. If we rewinded time millions of times over, you would have bought that book every. single. time. You getting this? 

Did I have any control on writing this response? No. I saw your message and knew I had to shake you up. Did I have any choice on how to word this, or how I chose to be harsh and blunt? No. This is all calculated on how I feel best to respond given my current knowledge. This is not meant to overwhelm or belittle you in any way whatsoever. I believe that this is what you need to hear, and I can't explain it. 

Quantum mechanics tells us that there are nothing but probability fields, and things only "come" into existence when observed. You used the example of the interaction of water molecules. What is the force that decides how things come together? Do you think you egoic chimp brain had any power over that? Fuck no. Get real.  

  

Such comments and perspectives do not shake me up. I appreciate the fact that you took the time to share your opinion on the matter. Each path is different. Gaining the perspective of others is sometimes helpful, sometimes not. That's the point of such an exercise. These comments can also help others. Maybe from the content or maybe just from the fact that it encourages them to consider things that they hadn't considered much before. Either way, it's all good.

[TheAvatarState]

@Bauer1977 You don't have to believe me. You don't even have to believe Leo here. You can demonstrate this for yourself.  Whether you click this video or not is not up to you. Either your desire for Truth wins out, or your desire to stay asleep wins out. Here is the man himself: 

  

Edited December 1, 2018 by TheAvatarState

[Bauer1977]

4 hours ago, TheAvatarState said:

@Bauer1977 You don't have to believe me. You don't even have to believe Leo here. You can demonstrate this for yourself.  Whether you click this video or not is not up to you. Either your desire for Truth wins out, or your desire to stay asleep wins out. Here is the man himself: 

  

It's not about belief. Your assuming you understand my situation, and you simply do not. The conundrum I was looking to resolve here wasn't as involved as you think. Note my first post in stating that I know for certain the free will is an illusion, I am also very clear on the fact that time is an illusion due to multiple spiritual experiences that I have had in my life. The only loose end I had was trying to resolve the idea of whether or not life is scripted. I know now by the experience of finding an internal peace when contemplating the matter that is not. The position I am appears to be quite different from what you think. Its nice of you to try and help, and I do appreciate your concern . But on this matter I am good. I have moved past it now and am focusing on finding a higher degree of acceptance with my life as it truly is in each moment, as it plays out. Relinquishing the idea of control at the ultimate depths and truly surrendering all control to God. If you have any info on that, please pass it along. Cheers

[Pilgrim]

So, basically how I understand it is that we can decide how we react to certain situations if we are conscious of them? That is the amount of free will we have. We cannot decide what our psychological patterns are that run us subconsciously and they might lead us to behave in a certain way or to have certain emotions/thoughts whatsoever. However, when becoming conscious of this pattern.. let's say I have an insecure attachment style and am prone to men who behave avoidant/distant.. because of this attachment style I subconsciously "choose" these people, but I cannot really do much against it. Yet when I recognise this pattern I can choose to go against my "subconscious urge" more or less successfully. 

Is willpower essentially free will then? To decide to go against an urge (smoking etc. )? I cannot decide what I want, but I can decide, if I am conscious enough of my addiction, to go against my wants? But basically it won't be possible to uphold a goal simply by willpower.. that is why so many people aren't able to break their addictions. Essentially you have to reprogram your wants in order to successfully stop smoking. 

So now the question is, can I freely decide to reprogram my subconscious patterns? Is this a decision I can consciously make? Likely no change will occur without discipline and thus willpower is essentially important as well. So would you say that people who exercise a lot of self-control and are very disciplined have more free will? (probably combined with high awareness of emotions/patterns)

Ugh.. this is really complicated. 

Edited December 2, 2018 by Pilgrim

[TheAvatarState]

10 hours ago, Bauer1977 said:

It's not about belief. Your assuming you understand my situation, and you simply do not. The conundrum I was looking to resolve here wasn't as involved as you think. Note my first post in stating that I know for certain the free will is an illusion, I am also very clear on the fact that time is an illusion due to multiple spiritual experiences that I have had in my life. The only loose end I had was trying to resolve the idea of whether or not life is scripted. I know now by the experience of finding an internal peace when contemplating the matter that is not. The position I am appears to be quite different from what you think. Its nice of you to try and help, and I do appreciate your concern . But on this matter I am good. I have moved past it now and am focusing on finding a higher degree of acceptance with my life as it truly is in each moment, as it plays out. Relinquishing the idea of control at the ultimate depths and truly surrendering all control to God. If you have any info on that, please pass it along. Cheers

Oh, I'm sorry that I completely misunderstood you. My bad...

So you understand that you as a human body have absolutely no control. The one doing the scripting is not you. Is it ultimately scripted? That's a tricky one. This experience only knows and has the present moment, so a "planning ahead" or strategizing is not possible. The very concept of a script is just that: a concept. It can have no actuality. If you haven't yet, I highly recommend watching Leo's live awakening experience video, and the follow up one explaining the integration of the experience. 

There is no script, but things are exactly how they're meant to be. That's where your inner peace came from. The future will happen exactly how it will happen, inevitably, but there is no script. It's perfectly chaotic. Perfect. 

Cheers!