The Illusion of Free Will, is life scripted?

[Bauer1977]

Given that free will is an illusion, and I am fully onboard with that idea. Does that then mean that our individual lives are scripted from conception, and even including conception? If we truly are nothing but awareness, and every thought and decision is given to us, what role do we have in our own growth, development and enlightenment? If there really is zero control, coupled with the knowledge that time is also an illusion, doesn't it seem as though every moment of creation within the illusion of duality would have to be completely scripted throughout all time? How could it be any other way given the laws and structure of the universe?

[Outer]

The goal of this work is to surrender to that fact. If you have self-referential thoughts its because you haven't surrendered. No I, no free will.

[Joseph Maynor]

2 minutes ago, Outer said:

The goal of this work is to surrender to that fact. If you have self-referential thoughts its because you haven't surrendered. No I, no free will.

The Illusion of Ego has free will or at least thinks it has free will.  We live with the illusion of free will.  So, it's only half of the story that there's no free will.  There both is and is not free will.  In fact, it's best to work both ends of the paradox between free will vs. no free will.

Edited November 28, 2018 by Joseph Maynor

[Outer]

Just now, Joseph Maynor said:

The Illusion of Ego has free will.

Yes you will think that you have free will because there is the I that has free will. That means you haven't surrendered and progressed.

[Joseph Maynor]

Just now, Outer said:

Yes you will think that you have free will because there is the I that has free will. That means you haven't surrendered and progressed.

Ok.  I'll take your word for it. 

[Outer]

Just now, Joseph Maynor said:

Ok.  I'll take your word for it. 

You don't have to take my word for it.

Here's how the I looks like in the brain, the default mode network:

Especially the one closer to the back of the brain and deep inside, the PCC, which is I think around the hippocampus that deals with self-referential memories, autobiography etc.

Lots of things shut down this network, in healthy humans just focusing on anything it is shut down. Blinking activates it so does laying down and closing your eyes, in healthy humans. Meditation is about it being shut down even when your eyes are closed or when you're not focusing or doing anything. It shuts it down. If there is no I, no DMN, then clearly there is no free will either, as there is no one to have it. But you have to shut down the network to verify that yourself if it doesn't make sense right now. Be completely without thought. All thoughts. And you verify yourself When you are Without Thought.

[Joseph Maynor]

5 minutes ago, Outer said:

You don't have to take my word for it.

Here's how the I looks like in the brain, the default mode network:

Especially the one closer to the back of the brain and deep inside, the PCC, which is I think around the hippocampus that deals with self-referential memories, autobiography etc.

Lots of things shut down this network, in healthy humans just focusing on anything it is shut down. Blinking activates it so does laying down and closing your eyes, in healthy humans. Meditation is about it being shut down even when your eyes are closed or when you're not focusing or doing anything. It shuts it down. If there is no I, no DMN, then clearly there is no free will either, as there is no one to have it. But you have to shut down the network to verify that yourself if it doesn't make sense right now. Be completely without thought. All thoughts. And you verify yourself When you are Without Thought.

Who do you think is surrendering?  See?  That's the Egoic self thinking it's surrendering.  You've egoically surrendered Ego.  A lot of people don't see that trap.  The illusion of Ego is part of Experience, it's not something to try to surrender.  You don't want to identify with Ego, but that's a different thing than trying to surrender Ego.

Edited November 28, 2018 by Joseph Maynor

[Outer]

Just now, Joseph Maynor said:

Who do you think is surrendering?

At the start it might seem like you I would expect. But then it is going to "happen on its own" to become materialistic ,the brain loves the state and does it all on its own. Find the state that you love and keep it.

[purerogue]

Consciousness is not brains , body, mind and Consciousness, body operates on its own principles, mind on its own and Consciousness, well it is everything you could say. 

[Outer]

6 minutes ago, Joseph Maynor said:

See?  That's the Egoic self thinking it's surrendering.  You've egoically surrendered Ego.  A lot of people don't see that trap.  The illusion of Ego is part of Experience, it's not something to try to surrender.  You don't want to identify with Ego, but that's a different thing than trying to surrender Ego.

Nah bro. If you have no self-referential thoughts, you have surrendered. If you've reduced your thoughts by 90%, you've reached a certain threshold of wakefulness.

[Joseph Maynor]

15 minutes ago, Outer said:

Nah bro. If you have no self-referential thoughts, you have surrendered. If you've reduced your thoughts by 90%, you've reached a certain threshold of wakefulness.

Hey. If that story works for you, I’m happy.  I’m not gonna debate you.  Pick your poison and drink it.  At the end of the day, the only relevant question is are you growing and improving, and only you can answer that.  We’re all on a solo mission in Personal Development work.  That’s why it’s called “personal” development work.

Edited November 28, 2018 by Joseph Maynor

[Bauer1977]

This conversation that you guys are having has nothing to do with the original question.... if we have no free will and if time is an illusion as well, does that then confirm that our life's are scripted before they even begin? Those who reach enlightenment in this life time were meant to, and those who don't, weren't. The state of things in the world is exactly as its scripted to be. Nothing can be affected by information that wasn't already pre-determined to be affected by this type of information. That appears to be the situation as far as I can tell. We appear to all be on a pre-determined path, forever and ever....

[purerogue]

But it is pointless question all together, I am already tired of this pointless debate, it is meaningless, go sit on a rock for rest of your life if you think you have no free will, I will on other hand do what is best , be it scripted or not is not of my concern. 

It is like asking why you should live if it is all just illusion, or why to live if you will die in the end. 

Is life scripted to some extend, yes, I think it is, I am quite sure it is , is it fully scripted , idk, it does not matter. 

Edited November 28, 2018 by purerogue

[Bauer1977]

It matters to me. The answer helps me understand my true nature. How can I progress down my spiritual path if I don't have the answers I need to do so? It's not about not doing anything and just sitting on a rock. It's a matter of Oneness. How can Oneness be possible of people have any free will at all? Yet, it seems as though some of us "choose" to pursue this type of information and run into these road blocks. Getting the answers takes time and effort.... but is that all just part of the script, or is there actually some control on some level somehow?

It also seems logical to me that if our lives are scripted, that is a genuine way to remove all suffering from a person's life. It takes away any ideas the Ego has, and with removal of all responsibility and fear, true happiness would have to be the result.

Edited November 28, 2018 by Bauer1977
additional info

[purerogue]

9 minutes ago, Bauer1977 said:

It matters to me. The answer helps me understand my true nature. How can I progress down my spiritual path if I don't have the answers I need to do so? It's not about not doing anything and just sitting on a rock. It's a matter of Oneness. How can Oneness be possible of people have any free will at all? Yet, it seems as though some of us "choose" to pursue this type of information and run into these road blocks. Getting the answers takes time and effort.... but is that all just part of the script, or is there actually some control on some level somehow?

It also seems logical to me that if our lives are scripted, that is a genuine way to remove all suffering from a person's life. It takes away any ideas the Ego has, and with removal of all responsibility and fear, true happiness would have to be the result.

What true nature you want to find if you are just idea, information, what you are looking for is beyond YOU, what if you get your answer with yes, 

what now?, will you know how your life will end? 

[Bauer1977]

No, it's not about knowing how my life will end either. It's about finding true happiness. Becoming 1 with nature.

I am leaning towards a YES to this inquiry.... but I am not yet fully convinced. It can't be fully realized and experienced until all doubt or uncertainty is removed. So I am curious what other spiritual seekers have come up with on the topic.

[purerogue]

Just now, Bauer1977 said:

No, it's not about knowing how my life will end either. It's about finding true happiness. Becoming 1 with nature.

I am leaning towards a YES to this inquiry.... but I am not yet fully convinced. It can't be fully realized and experienced until all doubt or uncertainty is removed. So I am curious what other spiritual seekers have come up with on the topic.

I have come up with fact that it is meaningless , if it is scripted then it is scripted and nothing will change outcome, you knowing , or not knowing can not change something that is scripted. 

[Bauer1977]

Sure... it will change my understanding, and therefore change my perspective. Developing one's perspective is the very basis of spiritual work. If declaring such information meaningless is your approach, how can you possibly develop your own spiritual awareness? 

[purerogue]

29 minutes ago, Bauer1977 said:

Sure... it will change my understanding, and therefore change my perspective. Developing one's perspective is the very basis of spiritual work. If declaring such information meaningless is your approach, how can you possibly develop your own spiritual awareness? 

 

If you find out that it is , or all world finds out is meaningless , as it was already in script , that means everything always goes by script, so you personal development will only go as far as it is intended to go by script.

If you find out that it is not scripted then sure, maybe you can do something with that information, but I am not sure what exactly you can do with it , if one outcome is predetermined, another is not, I do not see how exactly it will help you with anything, in predetermined you knowing does not matter, no matter how you look at it, so you can just throw it out of equation, now question what can you do with not predetermined answer, if other answer is just meaningless as answer. 

I cant explain with words why your question is meaningless , it just is , second answer is not answer, you are left with only 1 answer.

Edited November 28, 2018 by purerogue

[zambize]

9 minutes ago, purerogue said:

 

If you find out that it is , or all world finds out is meaningless , as it was already in script , that means everything always goes by script, so you personal development will only go as far as it is intended to go by script.

If you find out that it is not scripted then sure, maybe you can do something with that information, but I am not sure what exactly you can do with it , if one outcome is predetermined, another is not, I do not see how exactly it will help you with anything, in predetermined you knowing does not matter, no matter how you look at it, so you can just throw it out of equation, now question what can you do with not predetermined answer, if other answer is just meaningless as answer. 

I cant explain with words why your question is meaningless , it just is , second answer is not answer, you are left with only 1 answer.

Because of quantum mechanics the world runs on probability, I'm not going to get too deep into the free will debate, but there is no script.  The script is a bunch of probabilities of different realities if that makes you feel any better.  It's a mystery what you're going to get