Linear system vs nonlinear system

[Annoynymous]

Leo had said someting like that "human rational linear mind can not get to understand nonlinear system". I am not clear about the concept linear and non linear. What are they? How these both function? Is it possible ever to understand non linear dynamics?

@Leo Gura @Emerald 

[Leo Gura]

@Annoynymous To understand that requires you study chaos theory.

A nonlinear system is deterministic but has so many variables that it is impossible for any human or machine to model or predict in detail. Such systems behave chaotically but are still fully deterministic.

The weather is one example of a nonlinear system.

A double pendulum is probably the simplest example.

Almost all interesting and significant systems are nonlinear.

[zambize]

I can't help you fully understand or mathematically model these systems, but let me quick give you a simple nonlinear-system.  So it's not that Leo has said anything I disagree with, however I think he left out a key point that these systems often have variables that depend on each other.  It seems you're interested so let me quick give you a general example

Let's put a ball in a box and give it some velocity, we will call this ball 1.  Knowing it's mass and velocity, with some initial conditions, we can know exactly how ball 1 moves around the box easily.  The distance traveled will just be it's velocity(ball1)*time and that will be in whatever directions, but that's all very easy to figure out ( I know easy is relative, this COULD be easy for you).  This is my linear system.

Now lets add two more balls, although I think two would work fine.  So these three balls are all in some initial position and we will be giving them some velocity in random directions.  We want to sit down and figure out the position of ball one say in 30 minutes, after it has bounced of many many walls.  So we start writing the same equations velocity(ball1)*time and then we think to ourselves, well shit, what about collisions!  Ball 2 and Ball 3 might have gotten in the way.  So now we think, well i'll be intelligent and consider Ball 1 and Ball 2 two linear systems, I will calculate their trajectories until they fuck with each other, and then I will write the equations for what a collision might be, and the continue on the system as two linear systems until they react.  Well at this point you realize that you're an idiot, because Ball 3 probably interfered with even this simple two part linear system.  So you kind of get in this hole of trying to calculate one variable with another variable, but you don't know that other variable because it depends on the first.  In simpler English, you want to calculate Ball 1, but you need Ball 2 and Ball 3 to know Ball 1, but you don't know Ball 2 or Ball 3, because they also need to know Ball 1, but fuck I don't even know that after any collision has taken place.  

You can stop here, this is just one further example encase I didn't drive the point home.  Leo mentioned weather as an example.  Let's say today we care about rain because we're a witch and don't want to get wet.  Well clouds predict rain, but the presence or absence of clouds might hinge on the wind that day, the wind that day is probably some function of temperature outside, that temperature outside now is a function of clouds because well shade.  But fuck, now I need to know if there are clouds to know if there will be clouds and I don't know shit.... That's kind of the difficulty of non-linear systems as far as I can tell, hope that gave you any insight

Edited November 27, 2018 by zambize

[Annoynymous]

@zambize It seems like a complex thing. If it is so complex, how can we even predict things correctly? Moreover, if we think in terms of one's goal, how can one even work to achieve any goal? Because every effort we are going to put can have counter intuitive result, suppose we work of getting something and may end up having something that we dont want! @Leo Gura  

[Annoynymous]

I also want to know your perspective on this @Serotoninluv 

[zambize]

31 minutes ago, Annoynymous said:

@zambize It seems like a complex thing. If it is so complex, how can we even predict things correctly? Moreover, if we think in terms of one's goal, how can one even work to achieve any goal? Because every effort we are going to put can have counter intuitive result, suppose we work of getting something and may end up having something that we dont want! @Leo Gura  

Well I think there is some real beauty here, but I'm in love with anything most stuff STEM.

how can we even predict things correctly?

I'm not going to actually write out the code, but I can tell you how I would solve my ball example and how this could be applied to you.  So for the ball example, until the variables in our system interact, they are linear and only dependent on themselves.  The code for this wouldn't be too hard, it would start each ball at some initial position, with some initial velocity.  It would make really small increments of movement in whichever direction I tell it to go.  After the program moves each ball just a tiny tiny tiny bit in it's linear direction, we look to see if any of the balls hit each other.  If they hit eachother, we take a break from out system evolving to create a new set of three linear systems out of out old system, but now we have new angles/velocities that these balls are moving.  These angles/velocities will be dependent on this collision equation you solve.  Here you will have to consider the momentum of the balls, the angles of incidence at which they hit each other, this is all doable though and from this you can have a linear system again that has three independent parts.  The problem with doing this is it would be near impossible on paper ( BUT DOABLE!!!), you'd be spending all day with each ball slowly moving it forward and watching for it to collide with another ball.  Then writing out more angles and solving more equations just to create a bit of progress in understanding the time progression of the system. 

What does this say about your goals, I mean you're a nonlinear system yourself.  You get in these weird positive feedback loops. Say you start meditation, and this results in eating healthier because you need a bit more mental clarity (smarties aint doin it), but maybe this eating healthier gives you the energy to go to the gym, which makes you just feel really fucking good and now because you're feeling good you want to meditate more.  You can't solve that haha, but we can learn to be intuitive.  We can test inputs and techniques and not worry about the complex black box of interactions that is happening at the core.  I'm not saying throw away logic, but if you do something that feels like it's making a real difference in your life and you don't know why, don't worry about it.  While there would certainly be knowledge gained from learning about the complexities of why a technique might work for you, and the weird ways one habit might play off another, if it seems like you won't be able to wrap your mind around it, I wouldn't worry, you can still see the fruits.  

Final point is that while this seems to suggest you should treat yourself as this non-linear system, constantly recomputing the right approach you should take to life each second, that's not a good approach.  You'd spend all of your RAM computing and computing what you should do, and never tackling the issues in front of you.  You have a computer which at least for me can think/concentrate about/on on a finite amount of things each day. The game is taking enough points of your day such that you can get yourself back onto the best possible path without spending too much time figuring out the best path, because if you spend all day figuring out what you should do, well that's all you did.  find your max(efficiency*time) if you have fun maximizing growth.  I do this sometimes, and other times I watch Alex Jones call frogs gay, so don't be intimidated by this idea.  I think it's just fun to think about if you were a robot heading towards enlightenment, the fastest way of doing so.  

Anyways I hoped that helped haha

[Leo Gura]

6 hours ago, zambize said:

I think he left out a key point that these systems often have variables that depend on each other.

Yes, exactly.

That is what ultimately creates the self-reference problem, self-reflection, and strange loops.

[Annoynymous]

@Leo Gura how to take decisions in life then? If i want to go to point A and in this pursuit i end up being in point B, this can create massacre in my life. 

[Strikr]

9 minutes ago, Annoynymous said:

@Leo Gura how to take decisions in life then? If i want to go to point A and in this pursuit i end up being in point B, this can create massacre in my life. 

Pray & having faith in your hands to be guided. I suppose

[RichardY]

I thought "Trumps Art of The Deal", has a linear quality to it. Talked about how he could make money on the rumour of management changes, or sell stock and make money, can't remember the exact details. "I like to keep my options open". Might be like making payments on a car, either you make the payments and the company gets money through interest, or you don't and they get the car back plus the payments made. Winning either way. Might be a bit like forking someone in Chess.

[Leo Gura]

2 hours ago, Annoynymous said:

@Leo Gura how to take decisions in life then? If i want to go to point A and in this pursuit i end up being in point B, this can create massacre in my life. 

Determine what you want and then do it.

[Annoynymous]

@Joseph Maynor Thank you

[Leo Gura]

@Joseph Maynor Great resource.

I will be talking about chaos theory in the future as well.

[zambize]

40 minutes ago, Joseph Maynor said:

@Leo Gura

Complexity Labs is like a godsend for Yellow and Turquoise.  I'm actually a member of their Forum but I haven't posted anything.

http://complexitylabs.io/

https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCutCcajxhR33k9UR-DdLsAQ

https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCutCcajxhR33k9UR-DdLsAQ/playlists

 

I've been trying some teachers in Turqoise now for a bit.  I really love Shinzen Young and resonate with what he has to say, but I find he spends 75% of the time talking about details that I don't care about.  Really specific kanji symbols, reading the lessons first in Japanese first at times, just a lot of filler.  I've read a lot of what you've posted on here, and aside from Complexity Labs which I will be looking for, if you can point me in the right directions of a turqoise, high information density teacher who teaches similar lessons in Zen Buddhism and emotional mastery, especially more heavily rooted in science, I'd appreciate any recommendations.  Otherwise no worries, I'll just keep going down the list of people in the Turqoise mega thread

[Leo Gura]

@zambize One day a highwayman will stop you in the middle of the night in a dark alley at gunpoint and ask you, "Do you know the Kanji symbol for enlightenment?"

And suddenly all will become clear

 

[zambize]

31 minutes ago, Joseph Maynor said:

I would say many of your famous Non-dual teachers are at Turquoise.  Adyashanti to me seems very Turquoise.  Eckhart Tolle seems very Turquoise.  Mooji might be at Coral rather than Turquoise, I haven't decided yet -- I'd have to watch all his videos to really make that determination.  But yeah, maybe Mooji is at Turquoise.  I've seen some Coral elements in Mooji though.  So, yeah, I would consider Mooji to be Turquoise with come Coral elements as a working hypothesis.  Or maybe he is at Coral, I can't tell.  He's a little too stiff for Coral, but maybe that has to do with the kind of appearance he has to maintain as an "Enlightenment Guru".  If you sat and drank a beer with Mooji in a bar if he knew he could let his hair down, my guess is you'd get a very different person.

https://www.youtube.com/user/Adyashanti/playlists

https://www.youtube.com/user/Moojiji/playlists

https://www.youtube.com/user/EckhartTeachings/playlists

I started with Moojiji because I'd heard of him but not much of his content.  He's a nut.  Finishes some super deep idea, closes his eyes for 10 seconds, opens them "not one more word is needed", continues to stare at the crowd for 30 more seconds.  I'll be at least going down his list of 81 highlight videos, and do the same for the others, thanks for your recommendations.  

Leo if you're reading this, it's almost tragic, because Shinzen Young has such good information.  I mean obviously you know this, but it's very digestible for me, I just wish he took good notes like you and focused on the nuances instead of random details.  That being said, he's a blessing nonetheless, and I owe him a lot of my progress

[Girzo]

@zambize If you want something that has that hint of science, then you might consider reading Ken Wilber's works, if you haven't already. I recommend "No Boundary" with all of my heart.

[zambize]

Just now, Girzo said:

@zambize If you want something that has that hint of science, then you might consider reading Ken Wilber's works, if you haven't already. I recommend "No Boundary" with all of my heart.

Arriving Dec 4 - Dec 7, you got me with all your heart.  I've been looking for a few good books anyways

[Cocolove]

@Joseph Maynor What is coral?