Is there any merit to populism?

[Butters]

First of all, excuse me for not being educated on the subject. I don't read much news or study politics. I know this makes me look like an idiot but mindlessly spewing your opinion without any form of research seems to be cool these days ?

Anyway, populism is growing almost everywhere in the world. I believe it's because people feel overwhelmed by globalism and the staggering amount of news and information coming their way in the digital age. 

Then they desire a "back to basics" kind of thing where they want a collective purpose, rather than creating their own purpose like we are. 

Anyway, from the viewpoint of an actualized.org follower and student of Spiral Dynamics, do you think there's any legitimacy to this movement? 

I'm an optimist and I find it hard to believe this movement is really just a giant setback. Maybe it's the very last convulsions of stage blue in the West? 

Thoughts? 

[Forestluv]

26 minutes ago, Butters said:

Anyway, from the viewpoint of an actualized.org follower and student of Spiral Dynamics, do you think there's any legitimacy to this movement? 

First, I find it interesting that you used the term "legitimacy". Generally, that term is used to mean to defend a viewpoint with logic and justification.

An answer based on logic / justification is at an Orange level. This will likely trigger the Orange within you and put your self into a defensive debate posture. This will reinforce and trap someone at this stage of conscious development. 

Orange people stay trapped in this stage because they want/ expect "facts, evidence, reason and logic". They will debate and argue at this level for years and years and years. . . 

To reach a higher conscious stage, you will need to let go of your desire for what you consider to be "facts, evidence and logic". You would need to go post-logical. This is extremely difficult at this stage of development because the higher stages look irrational and "woo woo". And there are no "guarantees" that the next stage isn't a bunch of bullshit. Who wants to get taken for a fool?

IMO, your question will likely trigger an objectivist viewpoint. I would put all my effort into learning and embodying relativism and nonlogical modes of being - which is a stage further along than objectivism. The topic you choose is unimportant. The mode of being is important.

Be an observer to your self. Notice how your self is attached to ideas. Notice how your self is "safe in it's head". Notice how the mind wants to analyze and be logical. It has nothing to do with populism itself. It has to do with how the mind holds ideas about populism.

[purerogue]

How about being to be able to live your live with peace of mind, being more positive and having some self control? 

Does it go into category in legitimacy? 

There are many more things that could go into field of psychology which could be proven to be legit from scientific side, but the thing is that this is western way of thinking, they have been proven to work long time ago , it happens, so it must be legitimate, only the reason why it happens can be proven to be  wrong, which again will not take away legitimacy of it happening, just the reason why it happens. 

Setback , no , increase in concessions  is what makes us evolve and stay alive , without it we would destroy our self by now. 

And I am sure that in near future science and spiritual will have to merge together to evolve and answer more complex questions which are outside of simple rational thinking. 

[Butters]

28 minutes ago, Serotoninluv said:

First, I find it interesting that you used the term "legitimacy". Generally, that term is used to mean to defend a viewpoint with logic and justification.

An answer based on logic / justification is at an Orange level. This will likely trigger the Orange within you and put your self into a defensive debate posture. This will reinforce and trap someone at this stage of conscious development. 

Orange people stay trapped in this stage because they want/ expect "facts, evidence, reason and logic". They will debate and argue at this level for years and years and years. . . 

To reach a higher conscious stage, you will need to let go of your desire for what you consider to be "facts, evidence and logic". You would need to go post-logical. This is extremely difficult at this stage of development because the higher stages look irrational and "woo woo". And there are no "guarantees" that the next stage isn't a bunch of bullshit. Who wants to get taken for a fool?

IMO, your question will likely trigger an objectivist viewpoint. I would put all my effort into learning and embodying relativism and nonlogical modes of being - which is a stage further along than objectivism. The topic you choose is unimportant. The mode of being is important.

Be an observer to your self. Notice how your self is attached to ideas. Notice how your self is "safe in it's head". Notice how the mind wants to analyze and be logical. It has nothing to do with populism itself. It has to do with how the mind holds ideas about populism.

Haha I guess you're right. I wanted to trigger an intellectual discussion but instead I get pointed towards something that's kind of above my level right now. 

I'd love to grow to stage Green but the people are weirdos and I feel I haven't gotten nearly enough bitches and money yet in this stage. 

[RichardY]

Read on wikipedia and in "Plutarch Roman Lives" that in ancient Rome there were two main factions. "The Optimates." and "The Populares". Basically the Populares under Julius Caesar, defeated the Optimates by A) Using the Treasury to Bribe People. (By taking out large debts) B) Superior Military Skill. A & B are basically the same thing, Subversion.

[Outer]

Depends what kind of populism it is.

[Forestluv]

1 hour ago, Butters said:

Haha I guess you're right. I wanted to trigger an intellectual discussion but instead I get pointed towards something that's kind of above my level right now. 

I'd love to grow to stage Green but the people are weirdos and I feel I haven't gotten nearly enough bitches and money yet in this stage. 

That is a huge observation and a major key.

One metaphor I like is that a person is at a concert and all they can see are that the restrooms are messy and smell bad. They are missing the beauty of the music, the beauty of the dancing, the beauty of interpersonal connections, deeper levels of love and joy.

I was a hardcore scientist with major resistance against many aspects of Green. One thing that helped my transition was to learn Spanish and live within villages in Central and South America. I know this may not be feasible for many people, yet that direct experience was extremely powerful. It helped shatter my existing paradigm. Sometimes, a seeker needs to be willing to seek the Truth at any cost. What that looks like can vary.

[Butters]

31 minutes ago, Serotoninluv said:

That is a huge observation and a major key.

One metaphor I like is that a person is at a concert and all they can see are that the restrooms are messy and smell bad. They are missing the beauty of the music, the beauty of the dancing, the beauty of interpersonal connections, deeper levels of love and joy.

I was a hardcore scientist with major resistance against many aspects of Green. One thing that helped my transition was to learn Spanish and live within villages in Central and South America. I know this may not be feasible for many people, yet that direct experience was extremely powerful. It helped shatter my existing paradigm. Sometimes, a seeker needs to be willing to seek the Truth at any cost. What that looks like can vary.

Thanks. I lived in the third world for 3 years and it confused me to the max. Then I saw Leo's stage blue video and it all made sense ?

I was a hardcore scientist as well, but have loosened up a lot the last couple of years and am open to every theory and worldview. 

The problem with transitioninh into green is I don't want to become an idiot. I'd love to be more compassionate and interpersonal, but i don't see the reason to let go of logic and open-mindedness. 

I'm usually able to see both sides of a conflict and look for solutions in humor. Why would I want to trade something so wise for silly faminazi kind of attitude? 

I'm able to see that my point of view is merely my point of view and am always interested in finding solutions that work for every stage in the Spiral. Why trade that for Green dogma? 

I don't get it. 

Edited November 26, 2018 by Butters

[Forestluv]

1 minute ago, Butters said:

Thanks. I lived in the third world for 3 years and it confused me to the max. Then I saw Leo's stage blue video and it all made sense ?

The problem with transitioninh into green is I don't want to become an idiot. I'd love to be more compassionate and interpersonal, but i don't see the reason to let go of logic and open-mindedness. 

I'm usually able to see both sides of a conflict and look for solutions in humor. Why would I want to trade something so wise for silly faminazi kind of attitude? 

I'm able to see that my point of view is merely my point of view and am always interested in finding solutions that work for every stage in the Spiral. Why trade that for Green dogma? 

Ahhh, so interesting. You are approaching Green from a different direction than I. 

A couple ideas are arising in my mind. . . Perhaps it might be beneficial to seek out "healthy Green" - those that are not dogmatic. There are plenty of ideological Greens that will want to debate with Orange. Rather than hot political debates, perhaps explore Green values on human connection, love, sexuality, creativity, intuition.

Also, exploring Green modes of being does not mean you reject Orange modes of being. Green is an expansion of Orange. For example, a healthy Green can still use logic and reason when appropriate. Yet, now they are skillful at using moral relativism, compassion, empathy, creativity and basic non-linear logic. You are viewing Green as being irrational like Blue is irrational. Yet, Green becomes post-rational.

Part of the reason I got burned out on Orange was that I was analyzing and logical all the time. I was a walking logical thinking head. At school, with family, with my girlfriend etc. Eventually, I yearned for *real* human connections. I wanted to expand my capacity to love and participate with others. To expand my sense of community. Green has levels of emotional and spiritual depth, Orange cannot imagine.

[lmfao]

@Butters Populism is a hard term to define. Imma just refer to far-right, very heavily anti-immigration conservatives as populist. 

Bear in mind that in order for us to say whether a point of view has merit or does not have merit, we are invetibaly bringing in our egoic standards to the conversation. That's perfectly okay, I just feel the need to preface it around these conversations because there exist people who will never see beyond the illusion of ego because of their absolutist beliefs about reality (and topics within reality like morality for example). 

A couple of years ago I watched quite a few videos by the Anti-SJW community so I feel as though I understand populists. Whether intentionally or unintentionally, Anti-SJW ideologues acted as a bridge to far-right ideologies. It was from this I grew an interest in the alt-right and why it is they had such irrational beliefs. I'm ethnically Pakistani and I live in England. There are a sizeable chunk of populists from lower class families around in the fringe political parties. 

The thing is, populism just seems deeply rooted in ignorance and tribalism. What happens is that you very heavily "otherise" another group of people and fail to recognize that the people in that other group are humans just like you. If you're someone who has strong ideological values about religion and culture, seeing another race which has a different culture and religion will very heavily trigger you. Also, populism a lot of the time is just a fear of the unknown. And also there's just resentment which a populist has due to their egoic filter interpreting inequality and unfairness in situations where there is none. 

Imagine you have your narrow minded view of the world of how things work and how they ought to be. Coming along are these groups of people with different values to you. But you're an ideologue who cannot see relativism. You're stuck in black and white thinking when it comes to morality and culture. Hence you just are hostile to these other groups of people. In order to protect itself, the ego will form ideological groups in order to meet their needs and also in order to try and change the world in the way they see fit. This change might involve gassing Jews at the extreme end of the spectrum. 

I don't think there's much merit in populism, at least when we compare it to other common world views. 

 

 

 

Edited November 26, 2018 by lmfao

[Hellspeed]

Yes, pain in the ass. hahaha