I want to help Leo Gura with Jordan Peterson.

[CreamCat]

I understand what Leo Gura wants to say about Jordan Peterson. But, I think he spends too much time on ranting about jordan peterson and Blue/Orange.

I understand every stage has unhealthy aspects. It's just not healthy to rant too much about things. People who embody unhealthy aspects of any Spiral Dynamics stage will not change their minds when they hear rants about them. But, they can be inspired.

Those lost hours could have been spent on improving his life or his videos or inspiring people to ascend to higher stages of Spiral Dynamics.

Don't hate me for saying this.

[MsNobody]

Just pointing out that you are spending/wasting your time to rant about Leo’s opinion while you could also do the work, and also I’m wasting mine posting this.. 

Orange stage : critiques people’s opinion, thinks his opinion is right, wants everyone to adapt to their own values 

Yellow stage: values and respect everyone’s opinion, recognizes the value of each stage, knows there is no right or wrong only different perspectives, doesn’t rant about things.. 

“let him who would move the world, first move himself” Socrates 

Edited November 24, 2018 by MsNobody

[CreamCat]

41 minutes ago, MsNobody said:

you are spending/wasting your time to rant about Leo’s opinion

I didn't say he needs to change his opinions. I am not going to criticize his opinions. I have my own weird opinions that I need to work on. Whatever opinions one has, ranting too much is not healthy.

Edited November 24, 2018 by CreamCat

[thehero]

@CreamCat he knows

[MsNobody]

It’s very intriguing, I question myself a lot.. how people “swallow” JP so easily without questioning? When he speaks you can feel by his energy what is coming out of him, he is mentally aggressive (and this is a great thing when this aggressiveness comes out of curiosity or passion) the way he talks says a lot about his intentions, but maybe one is only thinking with the mind and not in terms of energy and I respect that

[Joseph Maynor]

2 hours ago, MsNobody said:

Just pointing out that you are spending/wasting your time to rant about Leo’s opinion while you could also do the work, and also I’m wasting mine posting this.. 

Orange stage : critiques people’s opinion, thinks his opinion is right, wants everyone to adapt to their own values 

Yellow stage: values and respect everyone’s opinion, recognizes the value of each stage, knows there is no right or wrong only different perspectives, doesn’t rant about things.. 

“let him who would move the world, first move himself” Socrates 

I love this post.  That Socrates quote is really good.

Edited November 24, 2018 by Joseph Maynor

[Emerald]

4 minutes ago, Etherial Cat said:

This! He looks and sounds like someone who is terribly unhappy. Many rationalist stuck in the scientific paradigm think intelligence is synonym of understanding that life is miserable, so I am not surprised his aggressive, grim energy, give them the impression he's lucid and his pain comes from facing the truth. Also, all of this comes off to him and them as a trait of his masculinity.

But no, his level of identification with his own thoughts is why he looks miserable, on top of the content of the said thoughts. They are draining him. The problem of JP is that he needs to integrate the divine feminine energy which he demonize.

I rarely think in terms of Chakra, but oh the irony, he could definitely benefit from some green heart Chakra opening.

Perfectly said.

And I think the OP misunderstands why Leo is openly against Jordan Peterson. It's not for the purpose of demonizing him. It's for the purpose of helping others out of unconsciousness... which is his whole deal.

It's ultimately, that Jordan Peterson has a high degree of influence over people, and the recognition that his influence enables people to get further lodged into a contracted perspective that is unconscious, destructive, and discouraging to the forward momentum of society and thus our ability to make the paradigmatic jumps necessary to avoid destroying ourselves.

So, Leo's ranting against Jordan Peterson is likely in hopes to get people up out of the unconscious perspective that JP assists people in getting lodged down in. So, his "rants" are for very practical reasons. And I'm glad that someone of influence who also has a high degree of systemic awareness is calling out the traps inherent in JP's perspective.

The way to "help people with Jordan Peterson" is to make people realize that his perspective is narrow, unconscious, and steeped in all sorts of biases (especially anti-feminine biases). He flies under so many people's radar, that it's troubling. 

[Outer]

6 hours ago, CreamCat said:

I understand what Leo Gura wants to say about Jordan Peterson. But, I think he spends too much time on ranting about jordan peterson and Blue/Orange.

Leo doesn't really. Just go through a few pages of his content and see for yourself.

Fake drama.

https://www.actualized.org/forum/profile/1-leo-gura/?do=content&page=1

[Outer]

2 hours ago, Emerald said:

Perfectly said.

And I think the OP misunderstands why Leo is openly against Jordan Peterson. It's not for the purpose of demonizing him. It's for the purpose of helping others out of unconsciousness... which is his whole deal.

It's ultimately, that Jordan Peterson has a high degree of influence over people, and the recognition that his influence enables people to get further lodged into a contracted perspective that is unconscious, destructive, and discouraging to the forward momentum of society and thus our ability to make the paradigmatic jumps necessary to avoid destroying ourselves.

So, Leo's ranting against Jordan Peterson is likely in hopes to get people up out of the unconscious perspective that JP assists people in getting lodged down in. So, his "rants" are for very practical reasons. And I'm glad that someone of influence who also has a high degree of systemic awareness is calling out the traps inherent in JP's perspective.

The way to "help people with Jordan Peterson" is to make people realize that his perspective is narrow, unconscious, and steeped in all sorts of biases (especially anti-feminine biases). He flies under so many people's radar, that it's troubling. 

Emerald, please, why are you so obsessed about this? Look at how you phrase yourself, putting  yourself on a pedestal and sound like an insane preacher:

"[Listening to Jordan Peterson is]  unconsciousness"

"[Jordan's] influence enables people to get further lodged into a contracted perspective that is unconscious, destructive, and discouraging to the forward momentum of society ..."

"is to make people realize that his perspective is narrow, unconscious, and steeped in all sorts of biases (especially anti-feminine biases"

 

[Zizzero]

Why does it matter what Leo thinks about Jordan Peterson?

If you resonate with what JP says - listen to him. If you don't resonate with him - don't. Does Leo have the ultimate opinion? When Leo says something is good then it is good and if he says it's bad then it is bad?

I personally believe that Jordan Peterson is very often unfairly portrayed on this forum and that he is being competely underestimated here. Don't fall into the trap of using SD to not having to make up your own mind; just because someone whose opinion you value - like Leo - says that JP is blue/orange does not mean that 1) What JP says is invalid or bad and 2) It does not even mean that JP is actually blue/orange. 

Whether someone praises or criticises Jordan Peterson or anyone else, take that as what it is - an opinion. No need to start a crusade to make everyone here agree with what you think of him - regardless of whether you like him or not - and no need to change someone's mind or behavior; let people rant, let people praise.

[exhale]

We all have triggers.  We are all evolving in this moment, including Leo.  Let's not expect everyone (including the teacher) to be perfect.

[zambize]

I think you actually have the right idea questioning Leo,  I can't help you settle this debate as to whether JP is blue/orange or higher, but I can tell you that you don't have to worry about how you feel or what you think.  

I.E.  "Don't hate me for saying this."

I don't want to project on Leo, but would you be surprised if in reality he was happier with you challenging his opinion than someone who blindly bashes JP without fully understanding any of the reasons because they think he (Leo) would like their opinion?   

Quick ending point, what if we did hate you for your opinion and all thought you were really stupid.  I don't personally, but what if I came on here and called you an idiot, and said you had no clue about Jordan Peterson.  I know you may have been joking at the end with "please don't hate me", but it's not your responsibility to make sure everyone is okay with your genuine beliefs,  Maybe you're right, maybe you're wrong, but say what you gotta say so that you can learn why you are wrong, or why you are right and move forward.  You did in this post and posted an unpopular opinion,  which is great and I hope that continues.  Best of luck!

[RichardY]

The  guy said he didn't sleep for 30 days in a show with Joe Rogan, after drinking apple cider.

JP is also a member of the Trilateral Commission and has written parts of major political documents such as Agenda 21. Yeah I've played Deus Ex.

[Emerald]

11 hours ago, Outer said:

Emerald, please, why are you so obsessed about this? Look at how you phrase yourself, putting  yourself on a pedestal and sound like an insane preacher:

"[Listening to Jordan Peterson is]  unconsciousness"

"[Jordan's] influence enables people to get further lodged into a contracted perspective that is unconscious, destructive, and discouraging to the forward momentum of society ..."

"is to make people realize that his perspective is narrow, unconscious, and steeped in all sorts of biases (especially anti-feminine biases"

 

I do take every opportunity to inform people about this because I see something happening that I think others (and society) would benefit from knowing about. I especially stress it on here because I know that people here are also actively trying to become more conscious.

I know that it probably sounds like I put myself on a pedestal relative to other people in this. But it's not that. I just recognize that I'm looking at things from a different vantage point than a lot of people do. So, I can see what's going on from a perspective that many others are not seeing things from. But I'm not thinking this makes me better or more enlightened. I'm just detecting what, form my vantage point, is just a really obvious and tangible problem that a lot of people are not detecting in Jordan Peterson's teachings. So, I frantically (as I am quite attached in this way) try to point out the traps that so many people are falling into.

For example, let's say that there are a bunch of people that are walking and they don't realize that they're about to fall into a giant hole as they're only looking up at the sky, as they think that's the right vantage point to take. So, they don't even think that looking at the ground is a viable perspective as looking up at the sky is the "superior" perspective. So, I see this as a person who realizes that they can both look up at the sky, the ground, side to side, etc., and that each of these vantage points will give me different information. And because of this, I realize that a lot of people are going to fall in that giant hole if I don't warn them to change their perspective and look down at where they're going. So, I am not so detached from this because I don't want them to fall in the hole. And it makes sense to me to help them avoid it.

So, this is the dynamic that I'm seeing with Jordan Peterson and so many other influences that help people fall into that "hole". This "hole" is a huge part of the contemporary zeitgeist. And it's not a fun zeitgeist.

Now, you could take a more detached perspective and could say that, perhaps these people falling into the hole is just part of how the entire system is supposed to work. Maybe because these people "fall in the hole" it will create such a catastrophic situation that humanity has no other choice but to become more conscious. And to some degree, I recognize that this is the case. So, the people in the hole become the example of what others want to avoid doing. And that eventually the system will work itself out in the way it's supposed to without my intervention or the intervention of others looking from a similar perspective to mine. So, that perhaps it is just best to trust that the system will do its thing. Or perhaps even the detachment to outcome and realizing that maybe humanity is supposed to destroy itself at some point and that's just part of the cosmic cycle. 

But I personally don't know if that's the wisest perspective to take. If I can assist people to avoid falling in that hole, that may help bring society forward without a ton of people getting into a bad situation. It is my preference to see fewer people in a situation of upheaval and I still feel like (perhaps foolishly) that helping individuals get free from the common illusions of the day will help us move forward while avoiding really destructive scenarios.

But perhaps this is a pipe dream of mine. Maybe things are going to do what they're going to do. And perhaps my small ripple effect will have no impact to next to no impact. 

But this general topic (not just focused on JP) is on my mind a lot. It comes up clearly every day. And I can tell that EVERYONE is being affected by it, every day. No on is hiding from this zeitgeist. So, I feel that perhaps my obsession and others' obsession that comes across in different ways is just a natural symptom of the explorations that humanity is doing relative to the collective shadow. 

So, I want to facilitate this movement toward greater consciousness in every way that I know how. 

[Leo Gura]

Of course every perspective has some kernel of truth to it.

But if you can't see the limitations of JP's philosophy that's because you're at his level of development/consciousness. He is teaching you exactly what your ego wants to hear.

To those of us who have outgrown that, the limitations are all too obvious.

But for you, at your level, JP may be appropriate. Until you butt heads with the limitations for yourself.

JP's teachingd are very primitive after all the stuff that I have seen and studied. But primitive is a relative notion. What's primitive to one person is advanced to another.

Understand that the logic being used to defend JP's philosophy is the same logic that is used to defend fundamentalist Christianity or Islam.

That desire you have to help me with JP is actually an egoic projection of your desire to help yourself with JP. You are trying to convince me because you need to convince yourself. And the reason you feel a need to convince yourself is because fundamentally you are disconnected from truth and JP's dualistic judging paradigm is going to make that worse, not better.

[Arthur]

JP is not a necessarily a bad guy, but you got to be careful with non-inclusive ideologies. 

A good illustration of one is depicted in the movie - American History X (1998). This movie is an extreme example of toxic ideology, but I think it teaches something. 

[Helios]

20 hours ago, Zizzero said:

I personally believe that Jordan Peterson is very often unfairly portrayed on this forum and that he is being competely underestimated here

I agree with you there. I also think that JP is really overestimated by most of the people who follow him.

[Joseph Maynor]

7 hours ago, Arthur said:

JP is not a necessarily a bad guy, but you got to be careful with non-inclusive ideologies. 

A good illustration of one is depicted in the movie - American History X (1998). This movie is an extreme example of toxic ideology, but I think it teaches something. 

Yeah.  That's a great movie.  I might start doing movie reviews of certain movies that are instructive to personal development.

Edited November 25, 2018 by Joseph Maynor

[CreamCat]

12 hours ago, Leo Gura said:

Of course every perspective has some kernel of truth to it.

But if you can't see the limitations of JP's philosophy that's because you're at his level of development/consciousness. He is teaching you exactly what your ego wants to hear.

To those of us who have outgrown that, the limitations are all too obvious.

But for you, at your level, JP may be appropriate. Until you butt heads with the limitations for yourself.

JP's teachingd are very primitive after all the stuff that I have seen and studied. But primitive is a relative notion. What's primitive to one person is advanced to another.

Understand that the logic being used to defend JP's philosophy is the same logic that is used to defend fundamentalist Christianity or Islam.

That desire you have to help me with JP is actually an egoic projection of your desire to help yourself with JP. You are trying to convince me because you need to convince yourself. And the reason you feel a need to convince yourself is because fundamentally you are disconnected from truth and JP's dualistic judging paradigm is going to make that worse, not better.

I think you misunderstood me. I changed a lot since a few months ago.

I don't try to understand jordan peterson. I don't follow him. I don't agree or disagree with him. I am not that interested in him to have strong opinions about him. I have other personal priorities in my life that are more important than understanding jordan peterson. I think your criticism of JP is valid although I think the threat he poses seems to be exaggerated. I don't disagree with you in the big picture.

I only watched a few videos of him to figure out what the fuss about him was about. I noticed that he was good at speech and he happens to be utilizing public disconcert. I don't know much further.

Did you not say that one of the core principles of life is to not be ideological or dogmatic? I'm trying to shed ideologies that I once had in order to become a more functional human being who spends more time on productive pursuits. I'm trying to do more workouts, do more study, do more meditation, and have more sleep to grow myself instead of complaining about my supposed enemies or listening to rants about my enemies. I'm trying to become the best version of myself. Thank you, Leo Gura. You helped me become a better version of myself.

I just noticed that this forum talks too much about one particular guy to the point where people seem to be mentally masturbating with jordan peterson. You also talked about balance. If people talk too much about one particular guy or one particular thing, they will probably end up losing balance and mentally masturbating. I just thought the time could have been better spent on other more productive things. I think there are better and more inspiring ways to raise people's consciousness than focusing on jordan peterson. Maybe, you don't agree with what the priority of the forum should be. But, I don't own this forum. Everyone has different opinions and different life experiences.

Even though I'm not an advanced student, I dare to help people. Forgive me if I was wrong. Perhaps, I'm even at a lower level than jordan peterson because I'm trying to crawl up from Beige again. I'm trying to build up fundamentals like food and sleep so that I don't mess up at higher stages.

Edited November 25, 2018 by CreamCat

[ajasatya]

jordan peterson has legitimately helped thousands of people with his teachings.

he teaches about responsibility. he teaches about the attitude of facing emotional struggles and healing relationships.

he speaks firmly so those who are lost in thoughts can finally build trust in a set of principles to extinguish the chaos from their lives.

jordan peterson has his own struggles. he's beaten alcoholism and as far as i know he still takes antidepressants. he's the typical example of a human being who felt completely lost until he was able to straighten his habits and moral concepts.

let the man be the man. and let those who resonate with him straighten their lives as well.

so if you say "uh, oh, his concepts about reality are too narrow!", then stop being hypocritical! you're being attached to concepts as well