Fuzzy, Blissful Feeling after Meditating

[Forestluv]

26 minutes ago, Wisebaxter said:

@Serotoninluv

You're saying it's a trap to separate thoughts from emptiness...as they themselves are empty? Just modulations of awareness? I've heard Spira talk about this and other teachers say everything is comprised of emptiness. Or is that thoughts are forms that arise from this emptiness? 

There can be seeking energy to remove thoughts and enter what a mind thinks emptiness should look like. If a mind is very busy, there just isn't any space, it's like trying to meditate in a rock concert. I found it really helpful to relax my mind any way possible - yoga, listening to nonduality, running for 20min. etc. Once the mind is relaxed, thoughts will likely float by. See if you can be an observer to them and just let them go. We aren't bothered by an occasional bird chirp floating by, why be bothered by an occasional thought floating by? Trying to repress thoughts just makes it worse. 

For me, the imagery that "thoughts arise from the emptiness" was a key to progress. It is beautiful imagery and I think someone can go really far with that image. Eventually, there was awareness that thoughts and emptiness are one. That formless is form. I'm currently embodying this realization and it's taken a lot of work. IME, if the "thoughts arise from emptiness" resonates with you go for it. It is a huge step toward the Truth. With that imagery, one can sit in the emptiness and allow thoughts to arise and dissolve. This can do wonders to dissolve attachment and identification to thoughts. An exploration of the emptiness from which everything arises can lead to so many flavors of mystical experiences and insights.

26 minutes ago, Wisebaxter said:

@Serotoninluv

You mean, they come to you as something other than words in your head? So do you mean images, or something deeper, something intuitive and beyond words?

 There can be words, images and intuition, but it isn't analysis or traditional thinking. For example, if I inquire "What is thought?" and start thinking "Well, a thought arises in the mind. A thought is associated with neurons. There are neurotransmitters that stimulate thoughts. . . " Leo did a great video on self inquiry which helped me a lot.

[Wisebaxter]

@Serotoninluv Ah thank you, thank you, not much I want to add or ask about your first two paragraphs as you phrased all the stuff about thoughts so well and it made perfect sense to me. Those were powerful words and I'm going to study them intently. I'm feeling so much love for everything right now, it's crazy. This fuzzy feeling, that's what it feels like, pure love, like I've taken a mild psychedelic perhaps (if my memory serves me as its been a while). 

12 minutes ago, Serotoninluv said:

if I inquire "What is thought?" and start thinking "Well, a thought arises in the mind. A thought is associated with neurons. There are neurotransmitters that stimulate thoughts. . . " Leo did a great video on self inquiry which helped me a lot.

Sorry, are you saying this line of  inquiry I.e thought based ( about neutrons etc) is to be avoided? Are you saying that the answer to such a question should come from a more intuitive place? I might need to watch that episode again. Which one was it exactly? 

 

[Forestluv]

16 minutes ago, Wisebaxter said:

@Serotoninluv 

Sorry, are you saying this line of  inquiry I.e thought based ( about neutrons etc) is to be avoided? Are you saying that the answer to such a question should come from a more intuitive place? I might need to watch that episode again. Which one was it exactly? 

 

Intellectualizing an inquiry is not self inquiry. If my mind went into intellectualizing "what is a thought" as described above, I would let go of it and try to reset. If the intellectualization returned, I would let go of the self inquiry and move in a different direction, perhaps just do vipassana meditation.

Most recently, I've been working through the concept "formless is form". It's easy for my mind to get into an intellectual trap and try to figure out. So, I've been sitting with the self inquiry "What is form?". I actually don't even phrase it as a question, just "Form". (Phrasing it as a question can trigger my mind to try to figure out an answer.) Over the last week, I'm slowly starting to get it. To "see" it. Yet, I can't explain it in words. If it can't be explained in words, how can it be communicated to me in words during self-inquiry?

Also, I think it is helpful to use a couple techniques in one's practice. It seems like you have a lot of momentum with your Vipassana meditation and I would go with that. Adding in some self-inquiry and contemplation may be great. Just be mindful if you start losing your Vipassana momentum. There is a lot to explore there and it sounds like you've hopped on that train.

You may prefer contemplating questions with a journal. I think it's a bit more tangible and engaging. At 8:08 in the video below Leo explains contemplating "What is a thought"?

 

[Wisebaxter]

@Serotoninluv I'm happy to hear you're making some progress with your inquiry into form. I like what you said about not phrasing things as a question to avoid getting a conceptual, word-based answer, I'll remember that. 

I'll be honest I haven't really gotten anywhere with the small amount of self enquiry that I've done. I ask 'what am I?' and I just get the same answer. 'I'm here, I'm this body and this mind. I just can't seem to disassociate myself with being a body at all. I feel so....located in space and time. But I really haven't done much. Maybe now I've made some progress with the meditation I'll get some better results. But patience and perseverance is the key I'm sure. I have a couple of books to read on self-enquiry from Leo's booklist so that should help me out. I'll drop a subtle question or two into my meditation perhaps, like you suggested and see what unfolds Thanks for the link

[Forestluv]

18 minutes ago, Wisebaxter said:

@Serotoninluv

I'll be honest I haven't really gotten anywhere with the small amount of self enquiry that I've done. I ask 'what am I?' and I just get the same answer. 'I'm here, I'm this body and this mind. I just can't seem to disassociate myself with being a body at all. I feel so....located in space and time. 

For me, self-inquiry was not effective when I was strongly identified with a sense of self.

It sounds like you have momentum with meditation and I would focus on the "observer + object" meditative stage. This is an enormous jump in consciousness. Life changing. You mentioned you like Spira and he has covered this stage in several of his videos (he calls it "enlightened duality").

When you are mediating and get lost in thoughts, are you able to recognize there is thinking? Perhaps you may think "Rats, lost in thought again. . .  I need to return to my breath". This is an early step in recognizing the self. Who recognized that there was thinking? Something prior to the thoughts. Something closer to the real You. . . The next step is to be an "observer" to the thoughts. This is one step further than simply recognizing thoughts. When a thought arises, can you simply observe it and allow it to disappear? Can you wait for the next thought to arise, observe it and allow it to disappear? Imagine you are sitting on a riverbank and thoughts are logs. Can you sit on the riverbank in peace and allow the logs to float down the river? Even the gnarly ugly logs? . . . At first, you may get a glimpse of being an observer, yet the thoughts will feel strong and close. With time, you will get more and more distance. Then, it will feel like you really are an observer, just watching without judgement or criticism. Thoughts may arise but will be much weaker and distant. You will sit in peace, even if there are logs floating down the river. You will know from experience that you are not your thoughts. This direct experience knowing will be liberating. This can take a lot of practice because the self/ego wants You to believe You are thoughts.

[Wisebaxter]

@Serotoninluv Well...I believe (although I'm not sure) that I'm at the stage where I've become an observer of the thoughts. I'm not using an object of focus you see, like the breath, I'm actually residing as awareness and watching for thoughts. However when the thoughts arise they do seem pretty close and have a sense of 'me-ness' about them. They only really arise when my alertness disappears and I forget what I'm doing, then when awareness returns I note the thought and reside in that state again for as long as possible. If I can stay alert and keep hold of the thought that I'm watching for thoughts, then no thoughts arise, although I find this a little odd as I'm almost using a thought to stop thoughts lol. But the stopping thoughts 'thought' does take a bit of a back seat, so there's still some pure awareness, I think. 

As for judgement or criticism, the content of my thoughts are usually quite tame, luckily, so they don't leave a bad taste. I live quite a simple, solitary, virtuous existence, so that helps. When they do occur they're usually of a dumb film I watched, like today I bizarrely started trying to remember who won the fight in Batman vs Superman lol. If there're judgements it's usually me judging myself for losing awareness, but perhaps that's what you meant. 

But anyway, the thoughts aren't quite 'weak and distant' like you said. That would be lovely. The idea of watching them like logs floating down a river and realising they're not me sounds very blissful. Om Swami likens it to stepping-off a Ferris wheel you were on and just watching it from below.  I only really see that on an intellectual level at the moment, but I can feel it happening very very gradually. 

Enlightened duality huh? I did watch a video of Spira talking about that. I'll go back over it and focus on the object + observer stage, like you say. I'll see what he says about how to move up to the next stage too, without putting the cart before the horse of course  Thanks for the great dialogue and all these awesome tips my friend 

Edited November 20, 2018 by Wisebaxter

[Forestluv]

@Wisebaxter Welcome. You are doing great work ??. 

[Wisebaxter]

@Serotoninluv That's nice of you to say, means a lot to me, thank you. Sounds like you are too