Spiral dynamics insights - what about classical kingdoms?

[billiesimon]

In the latest video Leo presents a chart of the different level of development in Spiral Dynamics. In this chart the roman empire is put at red stage.

Isn't it blue? Classic rome and greece were very stable and advanced societies at the time, and they were initially built on stage red because of the first raw conquests that both greeks and romans had to do to create a wealthy kingdom/republic.

When the roman republic rose up... they had to create a very strong and reliable law system (whis is STILL nowadays a rolemodel) and excellent roads and sewers. Not to mentions the excellent architecture and also the "greenish" laws of freedom of religion.

I think that the roman republic and the later roman empire were classic blue/orange stages to be honest.

[Leo Gura]

You realize that 40% of Romans were slaves?

And that Rome was run by bloodthirsty Emperors many of whom back-stabbed each other?

Ancient Athenes was pretty advanced but it disintegrated rather quickly amidst all of the low consciousness carnage in the area. The tallest blade of grass gets cut the soonest.

The HBO series Rome is a good depiction of life in stage Red. It's actually very similar to the politics of Game Of Thrones. Everyone is scheming to undo everyone else.

Of course Rome did have some stage Blue aspects to it. Marcus Aurelius was a fine example of a Blue emperor. Like I said about center of gravity, to say that Rome was Red is to say that 50% of it was Red, 25% Purple, 25% Blue. You see roughly that mix in the HBO Rome show.

[billiesimon]

10 minutes ago, Leo Gura said:

You realize that 40% of Romans were slaves?

And that Rome was run by bloodthirsty Emperors many of whom back-stabbed each other?

Ancient Athenes was pretty advanced but it disintegrated rather quickly amidst all of the low consciousness carnage in the area. The tallest blade of grass gets cut the soonest.

The HBO series Rome is a good depiction of life in stage Red. It's actually very similar to the politics of Game Of Thrones. Everyone is scheming to undo everyone else.

Of course Rome did have some stage Blue aspects to it. Marcus Aurelius was a fine example of a Blue emperor. Like I said about center of gravity, to say that Rome was Red is to say that 50% of it was Red, 25% Purple, 25% Blue. You see roughly that mix in the HBO Rome show.

Yeah, that's true. 

My knowledge comes from my classical literature studies (here in italy). I think there is some romanticizing Rome here in my country, since it's somehow patriotic. 

But it's also true that in an architectural, schooling and legal perspective Rome was definitely blue.
Literature and art was very blueish and very far away from purple and red tribal low level art.

Edited November 18, 2018 by billiesimon

[Leo Gura]

@billiesimon Maybe. On the other hand a lot of Roman art was a glorification of Red military conquest, power, and domination.

Is the Colosseum Red or Blue?

Is Trajan's Column Red or Blue?

[billiesimon]

5 minutes ago, Leo Gura said:

@billiesimon Maybe. On the other hand a lot of Roman art was a glorification of Red military conquest, power, and domination.

Is the Colosseum Red or Blue?

Is Trajan's Column Red or Blue?

I think they are both.

This is very interesting because the impression you get from studying classical roman literature and poetry tend to make them look like a perfect blue european country. Law, order, morality, integrity and respect for the senate and the generals are the core beliefs pushed by the roman writers like Virgilius, Catullus, Caesar etc... 

But I guess they were the elite, the top notch. While most romans were probably at red. Is this right?

[Leo Gura]

@billiesimon Well, you gotta keep in mind that those writers & poets were like the top 0.001% of the society. And they idealized the shit out of their culture. They of course were probably at Blue and above. But they were the high elites. The average folks were far less conscious and the culture of the elites is not the same as mainstream vulgar culture. While Virgil was writing his poetry thousands of illiterate Roman peasants were rioting in the streets for bread and sacrificing goats & chickens to minor religious deities (stage Purple). And bloodthirsty mafia-style gangs controlled the various sections of the city. Clan and family warfare was common.

Conventional European history does a poor job of teaching the everyday realities of life in ancient Rome. It's highly idealized and sanitized. Also because it's much harder to find historic evidence of vulgar life. The art that survives is high art of the elites. Poems are not written about bread riots, plague, illiteracy, slavery, gang rape, genocide, torture, and cults.

[billiesimon]

20 minutes ago, Leo Gura said:

Conventional European history does a poor job of teaching the everyday realities of life in ancient Rome. It's highly idealized and sanitized. Also because it's much harder to find historic evidence of vulgar life. The art that survives is high art of the elites. Poems are not written about bread riots, plague, illiteracy, slavery, gang rape, genocide, torture, and cults.

This is so on point.

Europe in general tends to pay a lot of homage to Rome, especially Italy, for obvious reasons. In my country universities have a very idealized and glorified image of Rome ("caput mundi", they say: "head of the world"). Champion of civilization and educator of the barbarians. This is how we learn about Rome in college here. This is because we tend to read mostly the highest of the literature, and the ancient romans themselves liked a lot to distance themselves from the savage barbarians (purple-red). In a lot of historians' books you can find disgusted descriptions of barbarians as tribal lowlife. Especially in Caesar's diaries.

Virgilius was probably blue-orange, because he described war as absolute horror, and a disgrace to humankind. Glorifying Rome as a bringer of peace and education.