Jordan Peterson on Moral Law

[Jack River]

6 minutes ago, Emerald said:

Thought is the medium of the roots of such issues. The actual root within the medium of thought is that certain frameworks of thought make us blind to particular perspectives, and insulate us from the awareness of certain facets of reality. So, these issue do occur in the dimension of thoughts and not in the dimensions of sight, sound, taste, touch, or smell. But it is not in creating a resistance to thought that we can transcend these issues individually and collectively. It is in being able to realize when our thoughts (in the form of beliefs and assumptions) are getting in the way of our awareness of things from various relative and absolute perspectives.

So, it is a matter of letting go of conscious and unconscious beliefs and assumptions on the level of thought that will allow ourselves to become conscious of our own blindspots relative to systemic racism and how it affects ourselves and others. When we let go of these thought-based illusions, we will notice what is actually there. We will notice the system of racism at play in the arena of practical experience.

Fosho. In the seeing/understanding of all that we will not move in that pattern. 

8 minutes ago, Emerald said:

So, you seem to be using the idea of resistance to thought in order to avoid addressing the issues in a real way. And this resistance to thought comes in the form of... thought. Without the thought that "thought is the root of the issue", you would be more able to see tangible actionable solutions to these issues.

The solution arises in the understanding of what is the case. 

 

9 minutes ago, Emerald said:

You will not get rid of thoughts, in yourself and especially not in others. So, the solution is not to pretend like you are free of the delusions of your thought processes and to create more illusory thoughts that society should just stop having illusory thoughts. Objectively, these solutions aren't actionable.

That’s not the point. Awareness of the process/movement in relation to content which brings about the emotional reaction is the point. 

11 minutes ago, Emerald said:

Saying that others should know the self is not a practical and actionable solution to this problem

It is actually very practical. Doesn’t get more practical than that. 

[Jack River]

The self uses ideas, philosophy, concepts, religion, and etc to bypass psychologically.

But I am speaking very generally here. Has nothing to do with spirituality. And has nothing to do with psychological time which is the basically the same thing. I am simply pointing out that that is what the problem is itself. Let’s understand it together. 

Edited November 23, 2018 by Jack River

[Forestluv]

26 minutes ago, Emerald said:

Saying that others should know the self is not a practical and actionable solution to this problem. It has very little efficacy in remedying issues on the level of world systems. 

 

14 minutes ago, Jack River said:

It is actually very practical. Doesn’t get more practical than that. 

Whoosh!

What you write is true within your relative spiritual bubble. Yet c’mon. . . There is a whole ‘nother relative world you aint woke to. It’s like everything Emerald is trying to reveal to you goes through this processing software that spits out an answer within it’s own bubble.

[Emerald]

6 minutes ago, Jack River said:

It is actually very practical. Doesn’t get more practical than that. 

How practically, does your realizations of relative to the illusory nature of thought and self percolate out into real-world effects on people who are on the receiving end of systemic racism. How do your realizations relative to the self help dismantle those social systems?

How do your personal realizations about yourself dismantle subconscious holding points of white defaultism in society at large? How do your personal realizations about thoughts and self, help people of color who are dealing with generational poverty, conscious and unconscious discrimination, white defaultism, or any other systemic force.

Your ideas of your own self-realization and the faith that you have this it percolates out into society at large in some substantial way, is just naive. Most people are not thinking in terms of self-transcendence. Most people are not predisposed to interests of questioning things on an existential nature. Most people are not going to transcend the thoughts or the illusion of self. And to expect others to just hop on board and do that is just wishful thinking at best and spiritual bypassing at worst. 

And you were still never clear about how to get everyone on board with this mass self/ thought transcendence. How do you suppose that would even be a reality.

Besides, most of these problems are not problems that can be solved on the level of the absolute. We can transcend the self and still remain in unconscious holding pattern if we don't direct our attention to what has been in the shadow. Shadow work on the level of collective consciousness is what is needed. Self-transcendence can help with that, as there is no ego in the way to be afraid of those awarenesses. But for society at large, expecting some mass ego transcendence to solve the practical issues of society is not going to work.

You have to work with the reality that we have... not with the reality as you'd like it to be.

[Jack River]

1 minute ago, Emerald said:

How do your realizations relative to the self help dismantle those social systems?

I created those systems. What are you asking me here lol

[Jack River]

All of this starts with the child. That’s why it’s important to go into all this with a child. That is learning. As they grow this problem of relationship is gone into. 

Im not talking about what is happening now. I’m speaking about “future” humanity. Starting with the child is what’s needed. 

Edited November 23, 2018 by Jack River

[Jack River]

10 minutes ago, Emerald said:

You have to work with the reality that we have... not with the reality as you'd like it to be.

Exactly. You said it. The reality is what it is. Can’t change what is, all we can do is learn about what is and end that pattern in ourselves. Any “outward” changing  will be minor. 

Edited November 23, 2018 by Jack River

[Emerald]

20 minutes ago, Serotoninluv said:

@Emerald Thank you! Spiritual bypassing is a new concept to me - now that I see it, it looks totally obvious ?.

With spiritual bypassing, do you find it generally best not to engage?

As well, sometimes I can perceive someone as being overall closed-minded and not see that there are both blocks and open avenues to pursue.

All part of developing skills. . . 

I don't engage on the thing that they're trying to bypass, unless I think it's helpful for them in realizing that they're bypassing. I instead, tend to find it more fruitful to talk to them directly about spiritual bypassing as that's the root of the issue. But sometimes, I get a feel for if I'm wasting my words on them and I get disenchanted to engage, and I have to take a break.

But relative to open avenues for conscious expansion, especially with regard to the most common and enforced worldviews and ego set-points of the day, it's important to find an underlying layer of their belief scaffolding to question as opposed to the most obvious and well trafficked areas of their worldview.

So, if you're in a discussion with someone who believes deeply and is stuck down in a limited perspective, don't go toward their most cherished and protected beliefs. Instead, go to the assumptions that those illusory beliefs are grounded in and scaffolded upon. They tend to take these more for granted, and will find it more amusing than threatening to question those assumptions as they exist too far down in the framework they've created to relate back to the beliefs that they protect and cherish the most.

The way that a worldview works is that it basically comes from nothing. There is nothing true about any worldview on the existential level because human thought cannot accurately conceptualize of reality. So, all worldviews (no matter what they are) have to start out with certain groundless assumptions that are assumed to be true. And from these assumptions, other beliefs and assumptions can be built on top of them. And this stacking and weaving of beliefs and assumptions continues to happen until the worldview is developed enough to feel airtight and 100% true to the holder of that worldview.

Then, they project this worldview onto the world, and if there are aspects of reality that contradict that worldview, they will edit it out of their awareness. Anything that threatens to undermine that worldview is a danger to the worldview, so the ego becomes more contracted around these viewpoints out of a desire to know how things work and to not have its baseline assumptions (that it bases everything on) brought under scrutiny.

So, to give an example form another thread I was commenting on last week, there was a guy who was saying that girls are so mean. But when he gave the reason, it was just that they were talking to eachother about finding another guy attractive when they were around him. So, it would be pretty useless to try to convince him that girls are not mean as the main talking point, as his assumption of girl's meanness comes from his other underlying beliefs... mostly about relative value in the dating game translating to actual existential value. So, instead it was more fruitful to talk about value as being a relative and not an absolute phenomena. And how relative value exists in the mind of individual human beings and had nothing to do with one's validity to exist.

[Forestluv]

15 minutes ago, Jack River said:

The reality is what it is.

That is not a relativist perspective. It’s either an objectivist view or an absolutist view. From a relativist view, your statement is just a relative truth to you. 

The assumption that “reality is what it is” is a block from understanding other views, because their view will appear as “not what reality is”. You would need to let go of that assumption to understand other perspectives (which are relative to the other person). This can be extremely diffucult to do depending on the level of attachment and identification to the given reality that “is what it is”. 

 

[Jack River]

8 minutes ago, Serotoninluv said:

That is not a relativist perspective. It’s either an objectivist view or an absolutist view. From a relativist view, your statement is just a relative truth to you. 

The assumption that “reality is what it is” is a block from understanding other views, because their view will appear as “not what reality is”. You would need to let go of that assumption to understand other perspectives (which are relative to the other person). This can be extremely diffucult to do depending on the level of attachment and identification to the given reality that “is what it is”. 

 

Reality is what it is. Our view has no matter in the case. All perspectives are relative. I am simply saying let’s lay our perspectives and therefore opinions aside and understand together. That’s all dude. Talking about attachment/resistance/identification and such. Namean? 

Edited November 23, 2018 by Jack River

[Emerald]

2 minutes ago, Jack River said:

Reality is what it is. Our view has no matter in the case. All perspectives are relative. I am simply saying let’s lay our perspectives and therefore opinions aside and understand together. That’s all dude. Talking about attachment/resistance/identification and such. Namean? 

How does this "understanding together" even work if we're setting our perspectives aside. Are we just sitting there together wordlessly? And then if everyone in the world sits together worldlessly, it somehow undoes systemic racism and all other such problems? 

[Jack River]

4 minutes ago, Serotoninluv said:

Ruh roh. This is starting to sound like there is an objective external reality. . . 

We created reality the way it is. The damage is done. It will takes some time to make worse or undo that damage. Right dude? 

Our imposition of our views/opinions are the reason it is the way it is. 

Edited November 23, 2018 by Jack River

[Jack River]

9 minutes ago, Emerald said:

How does this "understanding together" even work if we're setting our perspectives aside. Are we just sitting there together wordlessly?

Wouldn’t that be glorious heh. Lol

9 minutes ago, Emerald said:

And then if everyone in the world sits together worldlessly, it somehow undoes systemic racism and all other such problems? 

I’m just referring to communication with a suspended bias. Exploring the problem together(thought and its nature). There is no reason to argue over what is. Violence/racism is the fact. Your opinion and my opinion to solve violence/racism is besides the point. The answer comes from understanding the problem without resistance(holding to my opinion/answer as being the best one).

Edited November 23, 2018 by Jack River

[Jack River]

We are racism dudes. It’s all you 

Edited November 23, 2018 by Jack River

[DrewNows]

"Inwardly, is “the i” separate from fear? 

And outwardly, are we as “individuals” seperate from society/world? 

 

Inwardly, “the i” sets out to control fear...a fragment that sets out to to control a fragment, and so on, moving towards the abstraction. 

And that same inward movement of fragmentation is expressed outward born of this false notion that “the individual” is fundamentally separate from the society, in which we invent abstract ideals and so on to solve fundamental problems that arise within that society. The fact is disorder, (the fact), is constantly evaded by seeking security in the abstraction that thinks will bring about order, by the intellect, in the form of analysis. But just as analysis cannot bring about order in the relationship with ourselves, so the same the application of analysis as applied on political science to bring about order in relationship between (man-woman) kind. 

This outward disorder, (corruption in society) is merely a reflection of the inner disorder of “the individual”. And vice versa....

The individual is the reflection of the society, and the society is an expression of the individual. 

 

The cause and the effect are one and the same movement of fragmentation. 

 

Political science may have its place in practical matters, but when it comes to relationship in society/the world, this application of incomplete action only causes more disorder. 

 

IS THIS PROCESS OF FRAGMENTATION THE ROOT OF THIS DISORDER, AND THE REASON FOR THIS FAILURE IN THE ATTEMPT TO APPLY POLITICAL SCIENCE AS A MEANS TO BRING ABOUT ORDER IN SOCIETY/THE WORLD?"   

 -Faceless

@Emerald@Serotoninluv  Maybe this will be beneficial. For this to make complete sense you will have to fully understand where, why, and how division/confusion is created within (without assumptions). Shared this from 

 

[Forestluv]

32 minutes ago, Jack River said:

We created reality the way it is. The damage is done. It will takes some time to make worse or undo that damage. Right dude? 

There are people that are suffering within their relative reality. People that hold racist views and people perceiving racism. From my experience, these relative realities exist.

Views like “we create our own reality” or “thoughts are delusion” may provide liberation and comfort to the one who has awakened to it. Yet what does it do for the person that has been conditioned with racist views that are now repressed? The person who now experiences a sense of separation, fear and hatred? Does saying “Well, that person is just experiencing the delusion of conditioned thought” help them in any way to realize that? 

And the person who perceives a racist attack against them. Does your personal revelation help them in their relative world of suffering?

I’ved lived in communities with intense racism and poverty. With people that are oppressed. Starving. Direct experience. Go get some experience with the wrath of racism and oppression. I have in 3rd world countries. It will blow away your concepts and expand your sense of being. Or at least acknowledge that other people’s relative perspectives are based on extensive direct experience combined with conceptual knowledge. That their relative perspective may be broader and deeper than your own. It seems like you are in a bubble, yet under the assumption that you’ve got some type of broad understanding.

[Emerald]

9 minutes ago, Jack River said:

Wouldn’t that be glorious heh. Lol

I’m just referring to communication with a suspended bias. Exploring the problem together(thought and its nature). There is no reason to argue over what is. Violence/racism is the fact. Your opinion and my opinion to solve violence/racism is besides the point. The answer comes from understanding the problem without resistance(holding to my opinion/answer as being the best one).

This has been exactly what I've been doing in this entire thread. I haven't been giving my opinion on anything that I've said. I've merely been alluding to what is and trying to point out other's blindspots to that awareness, in hopes of getting them to shed the aspects of their worldview that creates blindspots and obscures these issues from view. 

And yes. Violence and racism is the fact. And I am also affected by the systemic forces that create. So, I am hyper aware of these mindsets playing out in me. So, I was talking about this earlier in the thread... and alluding to how everyone can fall into patterns of self-deception. 

So, I just think that you have a different idea of what this communication with a suspended bias looks like, and you don't recognize it when it's happening right in front of you. And you take conflict to be the marker of not having a suspended bias. So, you totally miss it.

[Jack River]

4 minutes ago, Serotoninluv said:

There are people that are suffering within their relative reality. People that hold racist views and people perceiving racism. From my experience, these relative realities exist.

Views like “we create our own reality” or “thoughts are delusion” may provide liberation and comfort to the one who has awakened to it. Yet what does it do for the person that has been conditioned with racist views that are now repressed? The person who now experiences a sense of separation, fear and hatred? Does saying “Well, that person is just experiencing the delusion of conditioned thought” help them in any way to realize that? 

And the person who perceives a racist attack against them. Does your personal revelation help them in their relative world of suffering?

Go live in some communities with intense racism and poverty. People that are oppressed. Starving. Get direct experience. Feel pain with them. Get a taste for the wrath of racism and oppression. I have in 3rd world countries. It will blow away your concepts and expand your sense of being. Or at least acknowledge you have little direct experience. It seems like you are in a bubble, yet under the impression you’ve got some type of broad understanding.

Dude you are taking stuff I say way out of context. Your not understanding what I’m saying. It’s simple dude. 

Nobody is saying all the shit in the world doesn’t exist. I know, I created it. Not society. 

[Emerald]

18 minutes ago, DrewNows said:

"Inwardly, is “the i” separate from fear? 

And outwardly, are we as “individuals” seperate from society/world? 

 

Inwardly, “the i” sets out to control fear...a fragment that sets out to to control a fragment, and so on, moving towards the abstraction. 

And that same inward movement of fragmentation is expressed outward born of this false notion that “the individual” is fundamentally separate from the society, in which we invent abstract ideals and so on to solve fundamental problems that arise within that society. The fact is disorder, (the fact), is constantly evaded by seeking security in the abstraction that thinks will bring about order, by the intellect, in the form of analysis. But just as analysis cannot bring about order in the relationship with ourselves, so the same the application of analysis as applied on political science to bring about order in relationship between (man-woman) kind. 

This outward disorder, (corruption in society) is merely a reflection of the inner disorder of “the individual”. And vice versa....

The individual is the reflection of the society, and the society is an expression of the individual. 

 

The cause and the effect are one and the same movement of fragmentation. 

 

Political science may have its place in practical matters, but when it comes to relationship in society/the world, this application of incomplete action only causes more disorder. 

 

IS THIS PROCESS OF FRAGMENTATION THE ROOT OF THIS DISORDER, AND THE REASON FOR THIS FAILURE IN THE ATTEMPT TO APPLY POLITICAL SCIENCE AS A MEANS TO BRING ABOUT ORDER IN SOCIETY/THE WORLD?"   

 -Faceless

@Emerald@Serotoninluv  Maybe this will be beneficial. For this to make complete sense you will have to fully understand where, why, and how division/confusion is created within (without assumptions). Shared this from 

 

I understand this perspective. And it's definitely true from that perspective. But not all truths are helpful in a given situation, as different paradigms call for different solutions.

That said, if you are looking from the assumption that all of reality stems from our internal state, and all conflict stems from our internal conflict, we could certainly allude to the importance of our own integration and wholeness as an individual. This is something that's very important

But in order to do this, we have to get rid of our resistance to truths from other perspectives that obscure from view our own shadow. Otherwise, there will be no internal integration to be had... as we will continue to deny certain emotional, practical, and intellect-based realities to ourselves. So, we can easily use this truth that you alluded to above, to self-deceive and remain fragmented and in conflict with the self and the workings of reality relative to issues like systemic racism as well as others that may make us uncomfortable. 

So, from the perspective of reality being a reflection of the wholeness and integration of the individual, it is best to become aware of these relative patterns of systemic racism and how the affect us as individuals, and how that individual effect plays into the system of racism on the macro level. To do anything else is to remain in fragmentation and ignorance.

But also if we take on the other perspective that reality is its own thing, it is STILL just as important to realize our own implicit biases and the effects of systemic racism upon ourselves and others.

And if we realize these patterns and we realize also that all is one and that there is no delineation between the self and other, it only makes sense to try to help others integrate these awarenesses as well so that our collective consciousness can integrate the truths that are currently in the collective shadow relative to racism and other systemic issues.

So, don't let these top shelf perspectives, allow you to shield yourself from more down-to-Earth truths about yourself and the workings of the world and reality at large.

Edited November 23, 2018 by Emerald

[Forestluv]

10 minutes ago, Jack River said:

 

Nobody is saying all the shit in the world doesn’t exist. I know, I created it. Not society. 

I understand you are aware it exists. I’m saying you are not “getting it” from other perspectives. 

How did you create the suffering of the family I lived with in Hondorus? And how does saying that “you created it, not their society” help with their societal racism and violence? I’m imagining you telling this to this community and shaking my head. . .