Jordan Peterson on Moral Law

[Emerald]

28 minutes ago, Outer said:

Actually in Green society, racism is defined to be systems of beliefs, concepts, worldviews or ideologies where the human species can be divided into races. I think that is accurate, as it is the foundational belief of racists in an Orange or lower society. I'm not saying it isn't above Orange. I'm just trying to state that by this definition many people in the U.S, who aren't racist by their definition, would be racist.

You can look up racism on the norwegian or swedish wikipedia for instance and translate the first sentence or two.

That's an Orange view on racism. Orange views racism as an individual character flaw and overt bigotry levied by intentional racial supremacists who have certain beliefs, concepts, worldviews, and ideologies on race. So, Orange people tend to think of themselves as not racist, and will be blind to their own implicit biases and contributions to negative patterns within the social system. And if a Green brings up the blindspots the Orange has and tells them they're being complicit in racism, they will get really offended and take it personally as they feel like they've been accused of having a character flaw on the caliber of David Duke. 

Green, however, views racism as something that exists in collective systems that are maintained by individuals both conscious and unconscious of their implicit biases based upon race. And their solution is to demonize and discourage those maintainers of the status quo of the racism within systems to punish and discourage them from continuing. They are aware of the systemic issues... but they often don't think systemically about the solutions to them. 

Yellow views racism as something that is a systemic invisible hand issue on both the collectivist and individual levels. So, they think systemically on the individual and collectivist level and see how the two perspectives inform eachother and maintain the system. The difference is in the lack of demonization and understanding that misunderstanding and unconsciousness is the lion's share of the problem. And they will be more focused on raising consciousness then on punishing wrong-doers, as they see how easy it is to succumb to unconsciousness. They want to really understand all the perspectives and workings within the system to address the issue at its core in a real way.

[Outer]

13 minutes ago, Emerald said:

That's an Orange view on racism. Orange views racism as an individual character flaw and overt bigotry levied by intentional racial supremacists who have certain beliefs, concepts, worldviews, and ideologies on race. So, Orange people tend to think of themselves as not racist, and will be blind to their own implicit biases and contributions to negative patterns within the social system. And if a Green brings up the blindspots the Orange has and tells them they're being complicit in racism, they will get really offended and take it personally as they feel like they've been accused of having a character flaw on the caliber of David Duke. 

Green, however, views racism as something that exists in collective systems that are maintained by individuals both conscious and unconscious of their implicit biases based upon race. And their solution is to demonize and discourage those maintainers of the status quo of the racism within systems to punish and discourage them from continuing. They are aware of the systemic issues... but they often don't think systemically about the solutions to them. 

Yellow views racism as something that is a systemic invisible hand issue on both the collectivist and individual levels. So, they think systemically on the individual and collectivist level and see how the two perspectives inform eachother and maintain the system. The difference is in the lack of demonization and understanding that misunderstanding and unconsciousness is the lion's share of the problem. And they will be more focused on raising consciousness then on punishing wrong-doers, as they see how easy it is to succumb to unconsciousness. They want to really understand all the perspectives and workings within the system to address the issue at its core in a real way.

Racism in a system is because of racism in individuals. A system is merely a conceptualization of a group of individuals, the effects are at individual interactions between for instance a customer and a client, a doctor or patient, or government employee and citizen. You will know that as you start thinking instead of speaking in platitudes. For instance how do know a hospital is racist? Or a restaurant? By the interactions of the doctor and patient and the customer and the restaurant. If the interactions are not racist, the restaurant and hospital isn't either. Because that is how you measure it.

By definition, what I wrote is how Green sees it as it's from two green societies. If you went there and spoke about how there are different races to enlighten everyone on the street, what reactions do you expect?

Edited November 21, 2018 by Outer

[Emerald]

1 hour ago, Outer said:

Racism in a system is because of racism in individuals. A system is merely a conceptualization of a group of individuals, the effects are at individual interactions between for instance a customer and a client, a doctor or patient, or government employee and citizen. You will know that as you start thinking instead of speaking in platitudes. For instance how do know a hospital is racist? Or a restaurant? By the interactions of the doctor and patient and the customer and the restaurant. If the interactions are not racist, the restaurant and hospital isn't either. Because that is how you measure it.

By definition, what I wrote is how Green sees it as it's from two green societies. If you went there and spoke about how there are different races to enlighten everyone on the street, what reactions do you expect?

This again, seems to neglect the validity of the collectivist perspective and shows a tendency to fall back on the superiority of the individual perspective. While it is true, that a collective system is made up of individuals, there are issues that cannot be solved from the individualist perspective. And to always draw everything back to the individualist perspective invalidates truths that can only be seen from a big picture collectivist perspective. Likewise, someone who's always looking from a collectivist perspective and is attached to that lens will be blind to truths from the individualist perspective.

To give an example of why being stuck in an individualist perspective is limited, imagine that there is a forest. You could say that the forest is an illusion because a forest is essentially just a collection of individual trees. And there is technically no forest to be found on the level of trees. It is just a way that human beings conceptualize a grouping of individual trees.

That said, if there is a problem within the forest, then you can't necessarily discern the solution to that problem by looking at individual trees without regard to looking at the larger system that is the forest and how the smaller systems react within that larger system.

This is the same situation with regards to complex systemic issues like racism, as it isn't necessarily driven on by the intentions of individuals. You have to look at the entire system to discern why things are happening the way they are and what is happening. Only then, can viable solutions come about. And the individualist perspective, is not conducive to the awareness of systemic solutions to these issues as the individualist lens is to reductive to have efficacy in that situation.

So, again, it is failure to be multi-perspectival to always default to the individualist perspective as the superior or correct perspective. 

This kind of thinking leads to myopia and sheds light on the meaning of "missing the forest for the trees."

 

[RichardY]

If morality is another name for regulated behaviour, not sure how you can make a law out of it without god. Lot of labelling, no code of behaviour, just what ever is in, anything other then Moral Relativism?   

I don't get the race thing. But when I hear various nationalities regional groupings, I tend to think. 

Scotsmen - Frugal
Welsh (meaning slave or foreigner in saxon) - two people and you have a choir. "It's not unusual to be loved by anyone!"
Saxon - Slow burn hatred.
English - Madmen
Nord - Cold.
Irish - Friendly crazy.
West African - Plantation slave, Eunuch or Beast.
East African - Good runners.
Dutch - Drugs & Hardcore sex.
Italians - Motherfuckers. 
Arab - Professional thieves.
Berber - Food and farting.
Persian - Quarrelsome.
Turks - Bloodthirsty.
Russian - Insane.
Spanish - Bullfighters.
German - Machines.
Frank - Crazy
Japanese - Run if smiling.
Chinese - Counterfeit.
India - Telesales.
Pakistan - Nuclear.
Native American - Wildmen

[Outer]

31 minutes ago, Emerald said:

complex systemic issues like racism

Give an example of systemic racism. I still don't share your definition of racism but I do agree with you if there is a bundle of individuals who are over and over racist or if there is a group in which there is more racism, that does warrant further study as to why that is. There are definitely racist organizations however. The definition of racism that I gave you, if an organization reflects that definition it is applicable to it.

[Emerald]

1 hour ago, Outer said:

Give an example of systemic racism. I still don't share your definition of racism but I do agree with you if there is a bundle of individuals who are over and over racist or if there is a group in which there is more racism, that does warrant further study as to why that is. There are definitely racist organizations however. The definition of racism that I gave you, if an organization reflects that definition it is applicable to it.

Think of systemic racism like a huge Rube Goldberg machine, where the ball drops and a flag goes up and that makes dominos topple over which makes a gun shoot which makes even more dominos topple over and a ball go into a cup that tips over and a string is pulled, etc. So, it's a complex and idiosyncratic system that creates a lot of unexpected outcomes.

And also, it's important to understand that the vast majority of negative effects toward people of color come from unconsciousness as opposed to direct malicious intent. Now, that's not to say that there aren't people with malicious intent toward people of color. It's just that the majority of racism comes unknowingly from unconscious well-meaning people. But the people with malicious intent know this, and can use those people as pawns to spread their agenda. 

So, let's take a very small and mundane aspect of the system of racism as an example. Band-aids are made to match white skin tones. The paint color "nude" is also a white skin tone color. 

Now, these are seemingly relatively innocuous examples. But they are actually a reflection of a much more pervasive systemic issue. Namely, that white is seen as the default race and that all other races are a variation on the white norm. I call this white defaultism. 

This is also reflected in the terms that we use to describe Americans who are of different races. Black people are called African Americans, and this is true no matter how long their family has resided in the United States. The black family and their ancestors could have been living in the United States for 400 years, but they are still called African American.

Meanwhile, we don't refer to white people as European American. And even if a white person's parents came from Europe, if that white person was born in the United States then they will just be referred to as an American. So, white people don't get a signifier like all other races and ethnicities, which also is a reflection of white defaultism.

And all minorities that live in the states get signifiers that suggest they are variations upon the white default. Even Native Americans, have the signifier of being "Native" as the qualifier upon being American, despite the fact that they have the most right to just be called American.

Then, if someone says, a person walked into a bar, the image that comes to mind is usually a picture of a white man walking into a bar, as person as an idea = white person. 

And this is an implicit bias that we get inundated with from a very early age because of cultural understandings and representation in the media. 

So, it takes a lot of awareness of this issue to not project this white defaultism onto reality, as it is such a cultural and psychological groove that enforces a lot of harmful mindsets around race and belonging. So, it even branches out and has many other effects on how people interact with and perceive people of color. 

Edit: Also, to be white and seen as default has the effect of coming off as "race neutral" to most people. So, white people get the benefit of not having people react to their race very often, as it is seen as the norm and blends into the background. So, white people get significantly fewer uncomfortable reactions to their race, where people of color would have to take other's reaction to their race into consideration really often. 

Also, being race neutral creates a comfort zone of racelessness in white people's minds. So, white people tend to become really sensitive and avoidant of matters that deal with race. White people tend to get upset and uncomfortable when they're in a situation that their race becomes a focus because they're not used to it. And that anxiety tends to get projected onto people of color, so people of color have to carefully navigate the waters in discussions about race with white people. And white people tend to not listen to grievances relative to race because they feel blamed and put on the spot. And they often have world-views that minimise the focus on race in general. So, it is difficult for people in minority groups to get people in the majority group to listen because of the majority group not being used to having attention drawn to their race and having anxieties and guilt around racial issues being brought up. 

Edited November 22, 2018 by Emerald

[Outer]

1 hour ago, Emerald said:

So, let's take a very small and mundane aspect of the system of racism as an example. Band-aids are made to match white skin tones. The paint color "nude" is also a white skin tone color. 

So you think band-aids that are made to match white skin colors  and a "nude" paint that matches white skin color is an example of systematic racism?

[Emerald]

Just now, Outer said:

So you think band-aids that are made to match white skin colors  and a "nude" paint that matches white skin color is an example of systematic racism?

Like I said above, these are two minor things that are merely a reflection of white defaultism, which is a huge systemic issue.

So, despite that band-aids and paint colors on their own would be non-issues, they reflect a much more insidious and pervasive systemic force that has profound effects on the social system relative to race. 

So, take these as very minor symptoms of a deeper and more serious illness.

In the same sense that cancer has some symptoms that don't look that serious on first inspection, it is the same for these minor tells relative to much more deeply ingrained racist patterns. 

[Outer]

2 minutes ago, Emerald said:

Like I said above, these are two minor things that are merely a reflection of white defaultism, which is a huge systemic issue.

So, despite that band-aids and paint colors on their own would be non-issues, they reflect a much more insidious and pervasive systemic force that has profound effects on the social system relative to race. 

So, take these as very minor symptoms of a deeper and more serious illness.

In the same sense that cancer has some symptoms that don't look that serious on first inspection, it is the same for these minor tells relative to much more deeply ingrained racist patterns. 

I'm asking again, are band-aids that are made to match white skin colors  and a "nude" paint that matches white skin color examples of systematic racism?

To me it's kind of trivial, but there have been transparent band-aids for many years and recently other colors that will match more skin colors. I don't think many people paint but if someone is and a company has a paint color called nude that's white I guess you can boycott that product or company.

[StephenK]

@Emerald Just out of curiosity, do you believe that white racism is more prevalent and important than, say, Black racism, or Chinese racism? Do you think this issue of racism is disproportionately prevalent among white people? 

Edited November 22, 2018 by StephenK

[SOUL]

1 hour ago, Emerald said:

So, take these as very minor symptoms of a deeper and more serious illness.

This is problematic, too. Suggesting it's an illness like cancer which further demonizes people and actually perpetuates racial bias. Let's seek to transcend it, not just flip it around or change the roles of it. We can attempt to expose it and resolve it without creating another obstacle to overcome in doing so.

[Leo Gura]

Has this horse been beaten to death yet?

[Outer]

59 minutes ago, Leo Gura said:

Has this horse been beaten to death yet?

It has been off-topic for a couple of pages but it was some good discussion imo.

[Emerald]

10 hours ago, Leo Gura said:

Has this horse been beaten to death yet?

These are the main aspects of the collective shadow that society at large is on the verge of becoming conscious of in order to make a transition from an Orange paradigm to a Green paradigm (to speak from a Spiral Dynamics perspective). So, the horse is still very much alive. This is why this topic will continue to come up again and again and again and again until collective consciousness has integrated these perspectives.

So, if it were truly a dead horse, it wouldn't be absolutely EVERYWHERE.

This is the cutting edge of collective consciousness. So, even if it's nowhere near Turquoise, these conversations are important to have to encourage forward momentum.

[Emerald]

13 hours ago, Outer said:

I'm asking again, are band-aids that are made to match white skin colors  and a "nude" paint that matches white skin color examples of systematic racism?

To me it's kind of trivial, but there have been transparent band-aids for many years and recently other colors that will match more skin colors. I don't think many people paint but if someone is and a company has a paint color called nude that's white I guess you can boycott that product or company.

That's why I said that bandaids and paint colors are merely a reflection of a much more pervasive pattern. They are very trivial on their own. But what they point to is anything but trivial.

So, you could boycott and demonize bandaid companies and paint companies and have them stop doing that, but it would do very little to effect the system at large that poses whiteness as default. 

Now, that's not as to say it would have no effect, as even dismantling something small has some positive effect. But renaming the paint color "nude" to something else isn't going to do much to change the system in a radical way because it won't do much to raise consciousness around systemic forces that enforce white defaultism. We're still remaining in the same paradigm as before.

For this, we have to address the issue of racism from its roots, instead of from its symptoms. This is what Green struggles with. They want to address the individual symptoms in hopes of curing the root of the problem. So, they go around obsessing about the color of bandaids and little things like that, but don't pick up on the larger systemic force that gave way to that symptom. 

So, it's like a person trying to kill a tree by picking its leaves off one at a time, and being surprised when still new leaves grow on the tree. 

[Emerald]

12 hours ago, StephenK said:

@Emerald Just out of curiosity, do you believe that white racism is more prevalent and important than, say, Black racism, or Chinese racism? Do you think this issue of racism is disproportionately prevalent among white people? 

I think that all peoples are equally capable and pre-disposed to bigotry. So, there is nothing special about certain races that make them more or less bigoted than other races. And bigotry is not nice no matter who does it and who it's done to.

That said, focusing on this issue at the level of overt bigotry that individuals have is not effective. And focusing on this issue at the level of hurt feelings about bigotry is also not effective.

Instead, it's important to focus on the issue of racism at the level of systems and thinking about that issue as a largely "invisible hand" issue that comes about from a bunch of different factors working together in idiosyncratic ways, as opposed to being purely the result of malicious intent put forth by flawed individuals.

So, on the level of systems, there is no overarching pattern that disenfranchises white people in the same way that it disenfranchises people of color. The system works to the overall benefit of white people and to the overall vulnerability of non-white people to those systemic forces. 

So, even though white people are no more pre-disposed to bigotry than anyone else, the system largely works in our favor and we benefit most from the status quo. So, it is most important for white people to become conscious of how this system works, as we have the most power to dismantle it.

[Emerald]

11 hours ago, SOUL said:

This is problematic, too. Suggesting it's an illness like cancer which further demonizes people and actually perpetuates racial bias. Let's seek to transcend it, not just flip it around or change the roles of it. We can attempt to expose it and resolve it without creating another obstacle to overcome in doing so.

I think cancer is an apt metaphor. Cancer itself has no malicious intent, but it has an extremely debilitating effects. Cancer is an invisible hand issue, that you can't really blame anyone for. It just happens as a result of many different systems working together in a way that produces dysfunction. This is a lot like racism. Even though racism does sometimes have malicious intent... most of the time the workings of the system go completely un-noticed. And most people who support and maintain this system do so because they don't know that they're doing it.

So, cancer grows when cells continue to expand and grow beyond what they're supposed to. But the body registers the abnormal growth as normal. 

This is a lot like the system of racism. So much of what causes racism is seen as normal by society at large. Due to lack of systemic thinking and consciousness in general, they don't see any issue with things that actually have a huge effect on the social system. 

So, we are not at a point where we can transcend issues of race altogether. Society isn't there yet, and people are still being affected negatively by it. And to, as an individual, flip into that detached perspective and "transcend" the issue, is simply to ignore what's going on and pretend that these systemic issues don't exist and to insulate ourselves from our own participation in those systems and those systems' impact upon our psyche and behaviors. 

Modern times, call for a Yellow-Green perspective to percolate through society relative to racism. So, trying to jump to a more transcendent perspective is just bypassing.

[Forestluv]

@Emerald Another feature for the cancer:racism analogy. . . The immune system oftens detects cancer cells and destroys them. For cancer cells to evade the immune system they must disguise itself. Similarly, racism often disguses itself to evade detection that would lead to it’s own destruction.

[Emerald]

2 minutes ago, Serotoninluv said:

@Emerald Another feature for the cancer:racism analogy. . . The immune system oftens detects cancer cells and destroys them. For cancer cells to evade the immune system they must disguise itself. Similarly, racism often disguses itself to evade detection that would lead to it’s own destruction.

Great analogy. In fact, this analogy could be applied to all things within the personal and collective shadow and how they remain unconscious. 

[Outer]

@Emerald Have you considered the possibility that the reason why Band-Aid was a white-brown color was because that's was the majority skin color of their customers, or some other reason like the same reason why bandages or lab coats are the color white and not out of Racism? Technically, the Band-Aid color applies to Asians, Hispanics and even Black people. It doesn't match my skin color. It was interesting that you say it is to match white people. Since it doesn't match my skin color isn't that racism?

Edited November 22, 2018 by Outer