Jordan Peterson on Moral Law

[Haumea2018]

I'll give you a better argument than your mom.

The problem with the whole "systemic racism" kick is that on some level it is deeply racist in its infantilization of minorities as helpless victims of an unjust system, forever in need of repentance as well as protection from the majority.

Most white SJWs of course don't see this because their entire theory is basically white paternalism, and it is rejected by a sufficient number of minorities as offensive.

Green is the paternalistic racism stage.

As an example: (from the Daily Beast, no conservative site:)

https://www.thedailybeast.com/dear-white-people-well-meaning-paternalism-is-still-racist

Edited November 23, 2018 by Haumea2018

[Forestluv]

15 minutes ago, Haumea2018 said:

I think what it means is that we stop treating minorities as eternal helpless victims without agency, stop creating simplistic theories out of complex social phenomena and start asking ourselves the really hard questions, such as "what ego investment do I have in seeing the Other as victim to be rescued?"

If we assume that is true, I agree that it would be an important issue within systemic racism to address. It would be one of several components of course. Good point, thanks. ? 

[Forestluv]

10 minutes ago, StephenK said:

What if humans as a collective are simply not evolved enough to rise up the spiral? Perhaps there are situations where engineering a society to rise up the spiral when it doesn't have the capacity to do so could cause untold chaos/misery and could be a deeply uncompassionate act. I fear those that have a 'taste' for engineering society, as they're normally the ones that inadvertently cause the most bloodshed. Systemic thinking has a high cost/reward to it when implemented. Implementation is often where reality will shine through and beat our ass red. There is much talk about 'why x or y is wrong', but there is little in the way of concrete examples as to what solutions should be put in place. In fact, most solutions I've seen proposed to fight systemic racism will just make the entire problem worse, as more and more attention is drawn towards race. It's a messy world out there.

Some Yellow beings are into social engineering and I think it can have unintended consequences. Personally, I really want societies to evolve up the spiral and I often feel desire to push the progress faster.

[Haumea2018]

It's an important issue...period.  

If we shoehorn it into the "systemic racism" box we are unwittingly reinforcing it because that box reinforces paternalist notions.

That's what I'm talking about here.  This is Yellow stage stuff.  There is no reductive, simplistic social theory "Green" way of handling this stuff (without being racist.)

And how to actually do it is beyond my paygrade to fully describe; all I know is that it would be a remarkably nuanced and multifaceted approach. (In other words, if some smarter person manages it, I'll know it when I see it. :))

Edited November 23, 2018 by Haumea2018

[Haumea2018]

Demonstrable instances of employment, housing and educational discrimination should be redressed via civil rights legislation/litigation (and where appropriate, like repeat violators, consent decrees.).  Racial profiling in police work (in the sense of disproportionately targeting a race based on statistical estimates) should be illegal.  

Maybe some others like that that I forget.  Basic, meat-and-potatoes civil rights shit.

Edited November 23, 2018 by Haumea2018

[Forestluv]

5 minutes ago, Haumea2018 said:

Demonstrable instances of employment, housing and educational discrimination should be redressed via civil rights legislation/litigation (and where appropriate, like repeat violators, consent decrees.).  Racial profiling in police work (in the sense of disproportionately targeting a race based on statistical estimates) should be illegal.  

Maybe some others like that that I forget.  Basic, meat-and-potatoes civil rights shit.

Thank you ? 

[Outer]

1 hour ago, StephenK said:

In fact, most solutions I've seen proposed to fight systemic racism will just make the entire problem worse, as more and more attention is drawn towards race. It's a messy world out there.

That has been my point all along as it's founded upon a racist belief of division of humans into races and putting conscious value on it. But at the same time it's not dumb to acknowledge the unconscious racist belief of division of humans into races, among other ones. But we're not 100% sure there is unconscious racist beliefs at least depending on our definition of racism.

 

1 hour ago, Haumea2018 said:

I'll give you a better argument than your mom.

The problem with the whole "systemic racism" kick is that on some level it is deeply racist in its infantilization of minorities as helpless victims of an unjust system, forever in need of repentance as well as protection from the majority.

Most white SJWs of course don't see this because their entire theory is basically white paternalism, and it is rejected by a sufficient number of minorities as offensive.

Green is the paternalistic racism stage.

As an example: (from the Daily Beast, no conservative site:)

https://www.thedailybeast.com/dear-white-people-well-meaning-paternalism-is-still-racist

Technically I don't think that racist paternalism is applicable to the case of systemic racism. Systemic racism is basically the unconscious racism bias existing in most peoples mind's, but that is just an assumption as we can't even measure it accurately. It might turn out that most people don't have racism bias. Though it depends how we define racism. But we do definitely have biases, as it's a part of our cognitive machinery, to utilize heuristics or mental shortcuts for various reasons.

I do agree with the article however, racist paternalism is definitely a thing, and it is founded upon the same belief as the racists, namely that people can be divided into races/groups and that we must give value to Any color of the skin rather than organizing our organizations and institutions, etc, around the fact that all are to be treated fairly and equally, to the point that we don't even have to bring it up.

Edited November 23, 2018 by Outer

[StephenK]

The other issue is that often race comes along with a set of cultural values, and these are hard to tease apart. It is easier to do business with people that share your own culture, as social nuances and cultural norms are more readily understood, therefore reducing friction within trade. In other words, maybe the problem isn't race so much as it is cultural values (which race tends to correlate with to some degree because of historical reasons).

[Jack River]

8 hours ago, StephenK said:

In other words, maybe the problem isn't race so much as it is cultural values (which race tends to correlate with to some degree because of historical reasons).

I would say that is getting much closer to the root for sure yes. 

Edited November 23, 2018 by Jack River

[Jack River]

The self that is identified as a certain race is the culture it is conditioned by. This culture and its conditioned traditional values are seen as all important or priority over other races/selfs/subcultures. The self being identified with its subculture/race will place itself/subculture as more important than anohter. This is a defensive mechanism of self. The self clings to what is familiar( the group/race/nationality and such).  Fear/seeking psychological security makes for resistance, antagonism, violence. This violence expresses itself in many ways than just physically. 

Edited November 23, 2018 by Jack River

[lmfao]

Ooo lala this thread looks juicy with 456 posts. 

[SOUL]

21 hours ago, Serotoninluv said:

This is *extremely* difficult to do with a mind that is locked into a perspective and defensive. 

This is one of the most important skills to develop at the Yellow level to help pull people up the spiral. Yet, it is a very difficult skill to develop. I think Emerald has developed this skill well in many areas. Some minds are particularly hard to open.

Also, threads aren’t just about the conflict within an individual mind in a thread. It’s not just the one user in a thread. There are many minds reading this thread that are open to progressing upward through these resistances. Emerald isn’t just speaking to Outer, she is speaking to other minds reading this thread, but not comnenting. This can help raise the average consciousness on the forum. 

Of course it's difficult to do, otherwise it would have been done already but how does comparing someone to a disease make it any easier? It doesn't, although, it does make the moralizer feel better about themselves through the negative comparison, that's why they do it. That's the definition of 'self-righteous' and it isn't too effective in awakening people to their unconscious bias. If the goal is to awaken people to it and motivate them to change it then results should matter more than a self appeasing method.

Edited November 23, 2018 by SOUL

[SOUL]

20 hours ago, Emerald said:

This is why I make a point to state that the system of racism is mostly an invisible hand issue, that stems from the workings of the system as opposed to direct malicious intent. So, unconsciousness itself is the primary enemy, not individuals.

But I do believe in being as frank and direct as possible for the sake of understanding and optimization of nuance in that understanding. And I don't like to sugar coat anything, as it is not necessary and tends to coddle and muddy the waters. The social system is very impersonal anyway, so just being accurate won't make anyone feel implicated or demonized... unless they were going to project that anyway no matter what anyone has to say on the matter that they disagree with. 

The way I see it is that if I am as perceptive, thorough, and honest as possible then the people who are the least emotionally attached to their current paradigm will be able to have an "aha!" moment and be able to have more clarity around this situation. People who are very emotionally attached to their perspective are unlikely to change no matter what, unless they share the value of becoming more conscious. 

So, the way I see it is that I'm very unlikely to make those that are triggered emotionally by this topic budge at all. But there are a ton of people who aren't triggered emotionally who will be able to recognize these patterns if I lay them out accurately and thoroughly, as their emotional attachments won't stand in the way of their perception. 

You can idealize the awakening process as much as you like consider your own efforts as such as much as you want but eliminating the discrimination behavior and the suffering that comes from it is the goal. Extremists are the few who purposefully and consciously behave from that bias aren't the ones who will be swayed by any reasoning, it's the moderates who are the majority that mostly have unconscious bias we are hoping to awaken them to.

By using language that characterizes them as a disease which virtually all have had someone they love taken from them by it doesn't serve the goal and can push them away from the middle towards the extreme. If the past decade isn't proof of that I don't know what more can show you that.

Healing people with embracing language in awakening them seems more likely to have the desired effect of motivating them to change it because the era of vitriolic social media mobs attacking at every perceived violation has only created more extremists. You may be a moderate person reaching out to other moderates but if you adopt the language of the extremists it can lead to more extremists in reaction.

Moderates are the majority and if we want to shift the collective bias away from what contributes to discrimination and suffering we do it by awakening the moderates that may be unconsciously participating in it to that and allow that to motivate them to change it. This will create the dynamic of shifting the whole window of collective experience to a more inclusive and equal personal experience.

Edited November 23, 2018 by SOUL

[Jack River]

5 minutes ago, SOUL said:

moderates

What do you mean by moderates soul? 

[Emerald]

39 minutes ago, SOUL said:

Of course it;s difficult to do, otherwise it would have been done already but how does comparing someone to a disease make it any easier? It doesn't, although, it does make the moralizer feel better about themselves through the negative comparison, that's why they do it. That's the definition of 'self-righteous' and it isn't too effective in awakening people to their unconscious bias. If the goal is to awaken people to it and motivate them to change it then results should matter more than a self appeasing method.

I didn't compare anyone to a disease. I compared an impersonal social system to a disease (as an example of another impersonal system). So, I was using one system that's more familiar and tangible to explain a pattern in another system that is still intangible and hard to understand for most people.

And I use this metaphor to explain how a lot of problems work, as there is no more familiar example of 'problem/symptoms/root dynamic' that the vast majority of people can understand and relate to.

So, understand that I'm not moralizing or shaming people who are unconscious one bit by using this metaphor. It is literally just the most effective metaphor. I also sometimes use the "if tree=problem; then problem lies in the roots rather than the leaves or fruit on the tree." But even this metaphor is kind of a stretch because it requires people to envision a tree as a problem first.

But again, if you have a better analogy to explain this dynamic to get people focused toward root causes instead of symptoms and individual intent, be my guest. 

Edited November 23, 2018 by Emerald

[SOUL]

Just now, Jack River said:

What do you mean by moderates soul? 

Not political, just moderate in general in relation to those who have extreme bias and behavior with regard to this particular topic.

[Jack River]

Just now, SOUL said:

Not political, just moderate in general in relation to those who have extreme bias and behavior with regard to this particular topic.

Gotcha..thanks  

[SOUL]

8 minutes ago, Emerald said:

I didn't compare anyone to a disease. I compared an impersonal social system to a disease (as an example of another impersonal system). So, I was using one system that's more familiar and tangible to explain a pattern in another system that is still intangible and hard to understand for most people.

And I use this metaphor to explain how a lot of problems work, as there is no more familiar example of 'problem/symptoms/root dynamic' that the vast majority of people can understand and relate to.

So, understand that I'm not moralizing or shaming people who are unconscious one bit by using this metaphor. It is literally just the most effective metaphor. I also sometimes use the "if tree=problem; then problem lies in the roots rather than the leaves or fruit on the tree." But even this metaphor is kind of a stretch because it requires people to envision a tree as a problem first.

But again, if you have a better analogy to explain this dynamic to get people focused toward root causes instead of symptoms and individual intent, be my guest. 

You may have the self awareness to realize that 'I am not my thoughts' but when you talk about the unconscious bias being a disease most people less self aware of this will take what you say as you calling them it. Although I'm tired of going around and around on this, go ahead and cling to your metaphor but you are contributing to the perpetuation of it even if you don't intend to when you use it.

Edited November 23, 2018 by SOUL

[Jack River]

I think for the most part we as a people already dissasociste from our thoughts. We jump to I am not my thoughts without seeing that we are our thoughts, as in self/ego(the past/thought). I’m not saying we ultimately are, but just saying that the self ‘assumes’ it is distinct from its thoughts. By doing that we are placing ‘ourselves’ outside of the field of responsibility. It seems we both identify and disidentify with our thoughts/emotions. It’s like a selective identification/dis-identifying process that takes place. Seems ultimately due to not understanding how we work internally.

 

Is it clear what I mean? 

Edited November 23, 2018 by Jack River

[Hellspeed]

When decisions and things are made without Heart the inevitability arises, every single time.