Jordan Peterson on Moral Law

[Outer]

6 minutes ago, Serotoninluv said:

That is great stuff for the person. My question is how would one disseminate that? Leo is creating videos and maintaining this forum, Emerald has a Youtube channel, I’m teaching this stuff in my courses. 

All the personal development work is very important, yet if one wants to help raise the conscious level of society, they need to reach out to society. 

Half-relevant.

Maybe this is more relevant

I can't find the video I'm looking for.

[RichardY]

@Emerald

I'm in no way interested in being the more reasonable person. 

“The reasonable man adapts himself to the world: the unreasonable one persists in trying to adapt the world to himself. Therefore all progress depends on the unreasonable man.”

― George Bernard Shaw, Man and Superman

I'm not interested in discrediting your points of view either, more out of entertainment and boredom, bored with too much SD crap. Why should I care in discrediting you? No credit to play around would have to start my own game, probably should.

Well I do technically live in a shire, so you're right there.

 

[Jack River]

Just now, Serotoninluv said:

Raising individual consciousness is super important, so is raising societal consciousness. Look at how much impact Leo has had at both levels.

They are one and the same dude. The individual is the society. No difference. Self understanding (understanding the intellect and its relationship with self) will effect the whole. 

 

2 minutes ago, Serotoninluv said:

The evolution of individual and societal consciousness isn’t always graceful. It gets uncomfortable at times. There is both inner and outer conflict at times.  

 

It’s all one consciousness dude. It’s important to see the fact of this. Communication is a necessity, but for that to happen there has to be relationship. And for that to happen there has to be self understanding. So we should understand ourselves(thought) together. 

 

5 minutes ago, Serotoninluv said:

But to just say this isn’t working doesn’t help progress much.

It’s important to see that unless there is self understanding then we will always look through conditioned eyes. We will never actually meet a problem as it is, but we will meet it as we feel it should be. 

[Emerald]

Just now, RichardY said:

@Emerald

I'm in no way interested in being the more reasonable person. 

“The reasonable man adapts himself to the world: the unreasonable one persists in trying to adapt the world to himself. Therefore all progress depends on the unreasonable man.”

― George Bernard Shaw, Man and Superman

I'm not interested in discrediting your points of view either, more out of entertainment and boredom, bored with too much SD crap. Why should I care in discrediting you? No credit to play around would have to start my own game, probably should.

Well I do technically live in a shire, so you're right there.

 

If that wasn't your intention, then why did you even go into the Gandhi stuff?

It was pretty obvious that the quote was very far divorced from Gandhi's negative actions, and that I was just responding in a half-agreeing way to the quote in the first place. 

Plus, you know that most people don't know about Gandhi's issues in the first place, and that most people don't know that was his quote.

So, it's like you decided to pull that small part out of my response to someone else, and then make it like I am permissible to his viewpoints because I 'think words are more important than actions.'

Admit, even if it wasn't you intention, this totally looks like a set-up for a dishonest debate strategy. 

[Forestluv]

@Outer Yes, from one perspective the Vietnam War was nonsense. Yet, a lot of suffering was associated with the Vietnam war. 

Is well, racism is nonsense. Yet a lot of suffering is associated with racism.

When society’s consciousness realized the nonsense of the Vietnam war, it finally ended. When society’s consciousness realizes racism is nonsense, it will end. We are trying to raise that consciousness level to help reduce racism. 

[Jack River]

2 minutes ago, Serotoninluv said:

When society’s consciousness realized the nonsense of the Vietnam war, it finally ended.

Did it end? 

Are we as people not still engaging in war on a daily basis. Verbally via antagonism/violence both verbally/physically. 

To me Vietnam is still very much taking place, only in different areas of the world. 

[Forestluv]

@Jack River If you want to go to the absolute level, then there is nothing / everything. Simply One. That’s great. 

Yet from that Nothingness is also a relative existence. That One consciousness is expressing itself relatively. And that relativity is evolving. 

Everything is absolutely perfect as it is in the Eternal Now and is evolving relatively.

Some beings in that relative workd want to help increase the relative consciousness of that One absolute consciousness.

[Jack River]

 

We can’t reduce/control racism as that is still a form of violence. Any action influenced by thought will be limited dudes. Every action has lead the world in the current state it is in. We never stop and understand what is happening.

[Forestluv]

5 minutes ago, Jack River said:

Did it end? 

Are we as people not still engaging in war on a daily basis. Verbally via antagonism/violence both verbally/physically. 

To me Vietnam is still very much taking place, only in different areas of the world. 

In those abstract terms, no it hasn’t. Yet my impression of the video was he was literally speaking of the Vietnam war.

Wether “racism” will ever “end” is an interesting question. A higher conscious form of racism may emerge in the future

[Outer]

3 minutes ago, Serotoninluv said:

@Outer Yes, from one perspective the Vietnam War was nonsense. Yet, a lot of suffering was associated with the Vietnam war. 

Is well, racism is nonsense. Yet a lot of suffering is associated with racism.

When society’s consciousness realized the nonsense of the Vietnam war, it finally ended. When society’s consciousness realizes racism is nonsense, it will end. We are trying to raise that consciousness level to help reduce racism. 

I don't doubt that we, pretty much all, have unconscious biases for racism and other things, and that this is reflected in our institutions. It's a part of our cognitive machinery. I suspect you mostly speak of the conscious racism that in our opinions, should be reduced.

There are heuristics / mental shortcuts. I do think that there is a biological factor but that doesn't mean we shouldn't maximize what we can do environmentally. If we eliminate all bias then we lose our mental shortcuts which can be very useful. Simply being aware of our biases can help a lot.

I think there are more pressing issues than unconscious biases, like animal welfare, non-UBI society, human welfare, malaria, racism, etc. But it is good that Emerald brings it up. It might be worthwhile to simply ask "do you think we have unconscious biases?"

[Jack River]

3 minutes ago, Serotoninluv said:

@Jack River If you want to go to the absolute level, then there is nothing / everything. Simply One. That’s great. 

Yet from that Nothingness is also a relative existence. That One consciousness is expressing itself relatively. And that relativity is evolving. 

Everything is absolutely perfect as it is in the Eternal Now and is evolving relatively.

Some beings in that relative workd want to help increase the relative consciousness of that One absolute consciousness.

Dude. That is not what I’m saying.

That is hilarious though.  Absolute???  I am speaking relatively/on a reality level here. 

 

[RichardY]

7 minutes ago, Emerald said:

If that wasn't your intention, then why did you even go into the Gandhi stuff?

It was pretty obvious that the quote was very far divorced from Gandhi's negative actions, and that I was just responding in a half-agreeing way to the quote in the first place. 

Plus, you know that most people don't know about Gandhi's issues in the first place, and that most people don't know that was his quote.

So, it's like you decided to pull that small part out of my response to someone else, and then make it like I am permissible to his viewpoints because I 'think words are more important than actions.'

Admit, even if it wasn't you intention, this totally looks like a set-up for a dishonest debate strategy. 

Because it would trigger people, which it did, maybe even delude them further, whether material or spiritual, thought I might play around with people's souls. If I tell the truth and people think it's BS so much the better. But there is only real truth in Enlightenment right?

As far as I'm concerned people aren't even having a debate, just spouting talking points. "Or flogging a horse to death"(as Leo said) with no real purpose. I just wanted to make my own point, out of vanity.

[Jack River]

9 minutes ago, Serotoninluv said:

In those abstract terms, no it hasn’t. Yet my impression of the video was he was literally speaking of the Vietnam war.

Wether “racism” will ever “end” is an interesting question. A higher conscious form of racism may emerge in the future

I’m not siding with anyone here but mankind. The fact is shit hasn’t changed in thousands of years. And the more we continue in the same old thought/self patterns, or outward imposition of “our own” means of change, the more we are going to continue destroying ourselves. 

And it’s not abstract. The abstract is actually considering “that war” as being different from any other. 

Has any war actually ended? Or has war been a continuous progression of ego/thought since early man? 

Edited November 23, 2018 by Jack River

[Forestluv]

4 minutes ago, Outer said:

But it is good that Emerald brings it up. It might be worthwhile to simply ask "do you think we have unconscious biases?"

I agree that is a much less threatening framework to an ego and could be more effective at times. Yet being generic like that removes degree.

Some unconscious biases cause more harm than others.

And I agree with you that there are many other important issues to be addressed. Mist of my attention these days is spent mental illnesses.

[DrewNows]

@Jack Riverwould you like to explain how the individual is the society? 

What would understanding the self do for society? 

[Jack River]

From the moment self reacts in relationship (resistance/attachment/identification) and then adheres to a self image, which implies the projection of that image onto others, then the violence/war begins. The actual battle is just a result of that violence. But the initial violence stems from the “me” “you” in relationship. Or the lack of actually. 

Edited November 23, 2018 by Jack River

[Forestluv]

17 minutes ago, Jack River said:

Dude. That is not what I’m saying.

That is hilarious though.  Absolute???  I am speaking relatively/on a reality level here. 

 

My impression was you were speaking of One consciosness, not relative individual relative consciousness

[Jack River]

Anything thought thinks about and invents is a reality and therefore relative. 

What I am saying is the consciousness of mankind is its beliefs, biases, and etc. let’s learn about all that. That is us, that is common. And all that is expressed in “society”. 

Understanding all that, not intellectually/conceptually, but holistically ends all that of the conditioned consciousness. Then we have stepped out of that stream of disorder. That contributes to the whole of consciousness. 

Edited November 23, 2018 by Jack River

[Forestluv]

10 minutes ago, Jack River said:

 

What I am saying is the consciousness of mankind is its beliefs, biases, and etc. let’s learn about all that. That is us, that is common. And all that is expressed in “society”. 

Understanding all that, not intellectually/conceptually, but holistically ends all that of the conditioned consciousness. Then we have step out of that stream of disorder. That contributes to the whole of consciousness. 

I think that is great. How can we disseminate that awareness at a societal level?

As we sit here pontificating about consciousness, people that have not awakened to what you wrote are suffering and harming others due to that conditioning.

Let’s say I’ve stepped out of that conditioned delusion. Great for me!!! How does that help other people still suffering from that conditioned delusion?

[Jack River]

10 minutes ago, Serotoninluv said:

I think that is great. How can we disseminate that aeareness at a societal level?

Start by coming together to discuss the nature of thought/self. Starting with understanding ourselves in relationship. Our tendencies to impose images on ourselves/others.

Observe our tendencies to seek security in our own bais, which is part of the structure of self/thought. Observe how every “movement of self” is to resist what is actual in experience, which is also an action influenced by knowledge/experience(thought). To basically see how thought is responsible for all problems discused here on the forum today. 

All social/psychological problems stem from thought running incoherently. Thought seeking psychological security first and foremost. Which implies violence. It is a resistance to relationship. Action born of isolation/fear. 

Edited November 23, 2018 by Jack River