Jordan Peterson on Moral Law

[Outer]

Just saw peterson's response to systematic racism or  whatever it is called.

 

[Emerald]

5 minutes ago, RichardY said:

Was spoken by Gandhi who thought Blacks were sub-human to Indians when he worked in S.Africa.

He also slept with his nieces.

Compares blacks to savages in this BBC article.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-asia-india-34265882

The quote I agree with from some perspectives. But I also think it shouldn't be used to avoid looking at issues on the big picture level as it was in the post I was responding to. 

But obviously, I don't agree with Gandhi's statements or actions. So, I don't really see how this quote relates to his racism and pedophilia. It's not really related in any way. It's not like he said, "Be the racist pedophile that you want to see in the world." 

[Outer]

1 minute ago, Serotoninluv said:

No, that is not what I am pushing for. I said the tests are getting better and better. One day the may be one tool (of many) that can reveal unconscious biases.

If you could reveal unconscious biases (you can't right now, since they are inaccurate) what do you do with that? Do you think all employers should go through it, or for instance citizens? If unconscious biases was later found out to predict behavior, would you change people's unconscious biases with retraining? (To alter behavior).

[Forestluv]

2 minutes ago, robdl said:

You are using the model to identify/group/label/categorize people.    Thought loves doing this and it's the same mechanism thought applies in racism, so it is ironic to me.  That's all I'm saying.  We  don't transcend division/separation/conflict by creating new divisions/separations.

SD is just one model to converse within a relative world. If the model worries you, don’t use it. It will be a distraction to the underlying issue.

The point is that human minds are unconscious of personal and systemic biases. We are trying to raise that consciousness. 

[Forestluv]

2 minutes ago, Outer said:

If you could reveal unconscious biases (you can't right now, since they are inaccurate) what do you do with that? Do you think all employers should go through it, or for instance citizens? If unconscious biases was later found out to predict behavior, would you change people's unconscious biases with retraining? (To alter behavior).

Don’t get distracted by the details. The big picture here is to raise the average conscious level of society. 

Uncertainty about how society will evolve within this higher consciousness is just social resistance to evolving higher.

It is the same dynamic at the individual level . . . “but wait!! If I discover my unconscious biases, I could lose my job! If I realize the self is an illusion, I could go insane!!!” 

You don’t get assurances of the output, before taking the plunge. You don’t get assurance that kriya yoga will help you progress and discover Truth beforehand. 

 

[Forestluv]

16 minutes ago, robdl said:

I'm not denying differences between people, but the question is do we group/identify/categorize people based on those differences, and reinforce our own identify/self-image in the process?   Does this not breed further division-conflict-separation? 

We group people at different developmental stages all the time. There are 5th grade and 6th grade. There are Yoga classes for beginners, intermediates and advanced levels.

Grouping people into similar developmental stages can help teaching efficiency. There is no way I could teach a genetics class filled with elementary, high school and college level students. Yet, I wouldn’t say one level is “better” than another level. The point is we are trying to help the kids advance to the next level.

Similarly, we can create developmental personal awareness levels. The downside is levels are often associated with superiority, which can stimulate defensiveness, demonization, competition etc.

[Outer]

17 minutes ago, Serotoninluv said:

Don’t get distracted by the details. The big picture here is to raise the average conscious level of society. 

Uncertainty about how society will evolve within this higher consciousness is just social resistance to evolving higher.

It is the same dynamic at the individual level . . . “but wait!! If I discover my unconscious biases, I could lose my job! If I realize the self is an illusion, I could go insane!!!” 

You don’t get assurances of the output, before taking the plunge. You don’t get assurance that kriya yoga will help you progress and discover Truth beforehand. 

 

The big picture is to raise average conscious level, let's forget about saving people from Malaria, or the billions of animals being slaughtered. Or the coming mass unemployment from Artificial Intelligence. Those are just details, it's the big picture from my Ivory tower that matters. What does even conscious level mean? How is it measured?

I love how you almost never address what I am asking, it's just "details" am  I right?  I need to do self-inquiry to "figure it out"

Ideology.

 

 

Edited November 22, 2018 by Outer

[robdl]

Just now, Serotoninluv said:

Similarly, we can create developmental personal awareness levels. The downside is levels are often associated with superiority, which can stimulate defensiveness, demonization, competition etc.

Indeed.   Grouping/identifying/categorizing is inseparable from measuring-comparing, and measuring-comparison always breeds this antagonism/competition/division.

[Forestluv]

1 minute ago, Outer said:

The big picture is to raise average conscious level, let's forget about saving people from Malaria, or the billions of animals being slaughtered. Or the coming mass unemployment from Artificial Intelligence. What does even conscious level mean? How is it measured?

I never said those issues are not important as well. I actually spent a few years involved in Malaria research ?

[RichardY]

 

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-asia-india-34265882

Racial segregation
In 1893, Gandhi wrote to the Natal parliament saying that a "general belief seems to prevail in the Colony that the Indians are a little better, if at all, than savages or the Natives of Africa".

In 1904, he wrote to a health officer in Johannesburg that the council "must withdraw Kaffirs" from an unsanitary slum called the "Coolie Location" where a large number of Africans lived alongside Indians. "About the mixing of the Kaffirs with the Indians, I must confess I feel most strongly."

 

31 minutes ago, Emerald said:

The quote I agree with from some perspectives. But I also think it shouldn't be used to avoid looking at issues on the big picture level as it was in the post I was responding to. 

But obviously, I don't agree with Gandhi's statements or actions. So, I don't really see how this quote relates to his racism and pedophilia. It's not really related in any way. It's not like he said, "Be the racist pedophile that you want to see in the world." 

Well actions speak louder then words, to me at least.

 

[Jack River]

58 minutes ago, Serotoninluv said:

Ok. How would you suggest we help those with unconscious racial biases to increase their awareness?

Easy brah...Not to contribute to that stream of conditioned reaction ourselves.

What’s done is done man. We are the result of the past, of thought, which is old(tradition/culture). 

The “individual” forms/is “the society” and the society conditions and holds hostage the individual. 

The self depends on outward authority to bring about change. This is also how the self looks to solve its “individual” psychological problems. To look to thought(abstraction/idea/theory’s/practices/techniques/systems) to end that state of psychological insecurity. But that causes the psychological problems in the first place. It’s all derived from the false divison that thought projects inward and then outwardly. 

 This is actually to resist, avoid, escape the problem that is born of the self/thought. The problem arises from thought and we try to use thought to solve that problem. All the outward problems( racism, nationalism, religious dogma, bias/prejudice) is an expression of the inner fragmentation that arises through an incoherent understanding and therefore awareness of thought-self. This leads to this outward fragmentation.

We are the problem. Which is what I meant @Emerald

When I say you I mean ME. 

 

Edited November 22, 2018 by Jack River

[Outer]

Just now, Serotoninluv said:

I never said those issues are not important as well. I actually spent a few years involved in Malaria research ?

Anyway, we do have biases, lots of logical ones, even racist ones, so does our institutions. But without  the Tyrannical element of the state there isn't the Wise one. As the king is both wise and tyrannical. It's just that it has to be in check and balanced.

[Forestluv]

15 minutes ago, robdl said:

Indeed.   Grouping/identifying/categorizing is inseparable from measuring-comparing, and measuring-comparison always breeds this antagonism/competition/division.

I think that is one aspect of it. We would need to measure and compare Yoga practicioners for begginner, intermediate and advanced classes. Yet would that necessarily breed antagonism/competion/division? Well, it depends on the person. 

In terms of SD, that type of antagonism/competion/division are common features in Tier1, it’s rarely seen in Tier2

[Jack River]

8 minutes ago, robdl said:

Indeed.   Grouping/identifying/categorizing is inseparable from measuring-comparing, and measuring-comparison always breeds this antagonism/competition/division.

Fosho. Ego/self pattern indeed. 

Edited November 22, 2018 by Jack River

[Jack River]

If there is any sense of psychological measure then yes, that is antagonism/violence. 

[Forestluv]

13 minutes ago, Jack River said:

Easy brah...Not to contribute to that stream of conditioned reaction ourselves.

What’s done is done man. We are the result of the past, of thought, which is old(tradition/culture). 

The “individual” forms/is “the society” and the society conditions and holds hostage the individual. 

The self depends on outward authority to bring about change. This is also how the self looks to solve its “individual” psychological problems. To look to thought(abstraction/idea/theory’s/practices/techniques/systems) to end that state of psychological insecurity. But that causes the psychological problems in the first place. It’s all derived from the false divison that thought projects inward and then outwardly. 

 This is actually to resist, avoid, escape the problem that is born of the self/thought. The problem arises from thought and we try to use thought to solve that problem. All the outward problems( racism, nationalism, religious dogma, bias/prejudice) is an expression of the inner fragmentation that arises through an incoherent understanding of thought-self. This leads to this outward fragmentation. 

 

That is great stuff for the person. My question is how would one disseminate that? Leo is creating videos and maintaining this forum, Emerald has a Youtube channel, I’m teaching this stuff in my courses. 

All the personal development work is very important, yet if one wants to help raise the conscious level of society, they need to reach out to society. 

Personally, once I started having direct experiencecof liberation beyond a self, an energy arose to help other beings that are suffering in low conscious states. Simply “not contributing to the stream of conditioned reaction” just doesn’t cut it for this energy. 

I may not be the most graceful, I may be awkward at times - yet there is an energy of genuine desire to help others.

[Jack River]

8 minutes ago, Serotoninluv said:

That is great stuff for the person. My question is how would one disseminate that? Leo is creating videos and maintaining this forum, Emerald has a Youtube channel, I’m teaching this stuff in my courses. 

All the personal development work is very important, yet if one wants to help raise the conscious level of society, they need to reach out to society. 

I feel ya..by holding dialogs, implementing it in daily life through vocation is all good too dude. Exploring he nature of thought/self would have to be discussed. Otherwise people are not aware of the confirmation bias and other tendencies of thought. 

Nothing wrong with that, I’m just saying comming together to understand the problem seems to comes second place, as I have witnessed on many different occasions here on the forum. 

Edited November 22, 2018 by Jack River

[Jack River]

All problems talked about today arise from thought/self. Let’s discuss thought/self as it is actually/inwardly dudes. All these social problems are conditioned, as is thought. 

Edited November 22, 2018 by Jack River

[Emerald]

31 minutes ago, RichardY said:

Well actions speak louder then words, to me at least.

I wasn't making any over-arching claim about Gandhi being a good person because he made that quote.

In fact, I didn't even know it was a quote from him when I responded to it. Gandhi himself, was nowhere in that discussion.

So, what you're doing is trying to make it seem like I was making a claim in support of Gandhi (because of or despite his racism and pedophilia) by half-agreeing with a quote by him that I didn't even know was from him. Then positioning yourself as a more reasonable person by saying, "Well actions speak louder than words, to me at least." Which implies that I don't think actions speak louder than words and assumes that I'm coming from the perspective of saying that "Gandhi is okay and his perspective is permissible because he made this quote that I kind of agree with from some perspectives this one time, even if I disagree with his actions."

But this is not what I said. You're just trying to trap me into that perspective, so you can discredit my points of view.

You know this already. But I was just responding to a totally different point that Jack River brought up, where I was even nuanced about the quote and said that we shouldn't use that quote to obscure broader truths and always default to the individual perspective as some issues can't be solved from that perspective.

But you saw that as an opportunity to debate in bad faith, and to discredit me by implying that by my half-agreeing with a quote by Gandhi (who very few people know that he actually did pretty messed up things), that I somehow see words as weighing in more than actions relative to racism and other issues. This can then be used to launch ad hominem attacks and to discredit my viewpoint on the basis that I'm the type of person who values words over actions, and is willing to overlook racism if someone has the right words. 

It's a very tricksy hobbits thing to do.

Sneaky Sneaky. Shame on you.

Edited November 22, 2018 by Emerald

[Forestluv]

14 minutes ago, Jack River said:

I feel ya..by holding dialogs, implementing it in daily life through vocation is all good too dude. Exploring he nature of thought/self would have to be discussed. Otherwise people are not aware of the confirmation bias and other tendencies of thought. 

Nothing wrong with that, I’m just saying comming together to understand the problem seems to comes second place, as I have witnessed here on may different occasions on the forum. 

Raising individual consciousness is super important, so is raising societal consciousness. Look at how much impact Leo has had at both levels.

The evolution of individual and societal consciousness isn’t always graceful. It gets uncomfortable at times. There is both inner and outer conflict at times.  

Any suggestions to make the process more effective at individual and group levels are appreciated. Perhaps that might entail avoiding these types of group conversations. But to just say this does no good doesn’t help progress much.

To awaken to the absolute that racism doesn’t exist is a powerful revelation, yet it in the realitive world - it doesn’t do much to help reduce suffering associated with racism.