Jordan Peterson on Moral Law

[Emerald]

1 minute ago, Jack River said:

It all starts with me dude.

Are we going to continue clinging to “our” answers, ideas, opinions, or are we going to actually understand the problem together? 

This is an expression of thoughts tendency to seek security first and foremost. My ways is better than yours lol 

its exactly why things are the way they are. 

What do you think we're doing right now?

You seem to have a particular idea of what it means to "understand the problem together" and you're missing it when it's right in front of your face. 

[Jack River]

Just now, Serotoninluv said:

Ok. How would you suggest we help those with unconscious racial biases to increase their awareness?

Be the change dude. Step out of the stream/the spiral. 

[Outer]

5 minutes ago, Serotoninluv said:

Ok. How would you suggest we help those with unconscious racial biases to increase their awareness?

But you can't know who has unconscious racial biases, because the test result correlates .5 with future results, meaning it alters as you do multiple tests.

Even if you could measure unconscious racial biases accurately, do you then have evidence that they predict behavior?

Now if you did have evidence that they predict behavior, could you alter the unconscious biases and then to change behavior?

Then the question comes, should you be retrained by your employer or government?

 

Edited November 22, 2018 by Outer

[Jack River]

@Emerald Arguing will never change anything. It’s an expression of resistance/attachment(fear-ego). 

 

[Emerald]

3 minutes ago, Jack River said:

Your not seeing my point. 

the collective and the individual are the same.  Start with you. That simple. 

We are the problem, let’s understand it heh. 

 

1 minute ago, Jack River said:

Be the change dude. Step out of the stream/the spiral. 

What does this look like to you? How do we "step out of the stream"? 

Right now, it honestly just sounds like you're bypassing and defaulting to a more detached perspective. And just saying... "Stop the conflict, and listen to me. I'm detached and have transcended the issue. So, just step out of the stream like me and let the world do whatever it does... Just focus on yourself and everything else will fall into place."

So, if you can give a bit more context with your advice, I would be happy to listen to it. But right now it just sounds like you're bypassing and being avoidant of switching to a more down to Earth perspective. 

[Forestluv]

Just now, Jack River said:

Be the change dude. Step out of the stream/the spiral. 

That doesn’t answer the question. You seem to be giving an absolute answer to a relative problem. 

“Be the Change” is the type of bumper sticker I saw when I lived in Santa Cruz. Yet, what exactly does it mean and how does “be the change” help bring awareness to unconscious and systemic racism?

[Jack River]

Just now, Serotoninluv said:

That doesn’t answer the question. You seem to be giving an absolute answer to a relative problem. 

“Be the Change” is the type of bumper sticker I saw when I lived in Santa Cruz. Yet, what exactly does it mean and how does “be the change” help bring awareness to unconscious and systemic racism?

Self understanding dudes. 

Understanding the nature of thought/self. Stop playing with yourselves

[Forestluv]

4 minutes ago, Outer said:

But you can't know who has unconscious racial biases, because the test result correlates .5 with future results, meaning it alters as you do multiple tests.

Even if you could measure unconscious racial biases accurately, do you then have evidence that they predict behavior?

Now if you did have evidence that they predict behavior, could you alter the unconscious biases and then to change behavior?

Then the question comes, should you be retrained by your employer or government?

 

I did not say you are limited to scientific quantification. 

Hiw would you become aware of your own unconscious biases?

[Emerald]

4 minutes ago, Jack River said:

@Emerald Arguing will never change anything. It’s an expression of resistance/attachment(fear-ego). 

 

You perceive what I'm doing as arguing, but I'm not arguing at all. I'm telling people things that I've observed in hopes that they will let go of their biases and be able to perceive more accurately what's always been in front of them. 

So, what is your solution to systemic racism. How will we be able to change the status quo of white defaults by working only on ourselves without regard to the social system at large.

Just realize that it's not okay, and shut our mouth so that we avoid conflict. If everyone did this, we'd still be in the stone ages. 

[robdl]

18 minutes ago, Serotoninluv said:

@Jack River

How would you help raise the consciousness of a defensive Orange level being?

The mechanism of thought that wants to label/separate/group/categorize/compare/identify someone as "orange level being" is the same mechanism of thought responsible for racism/identifying-grouping another.   Thought wants to compulsively separate/compare/identify/label/group, whether it be based on race, or some conceptual stage model.

[Forestluv]

1 minute ago, Jack River said:

Self understanding dudes. 

Understanding the nature of thought/self. Stop playing with yourselves

Great. Now how do we increase self understanding for those that defend their unconscious biases?

[Jack River]

2 minutes ago, Emerald said:

 

What does this look like to you? How do we "step out of the stream"? 

Right now, it honestly just sounds like you're bypassing and defaulting to a more detached perspective. And just saying... "Stop the conflict, and listen to me. I'm detached and have transcended the issue. So, just step out of the stream like me and let the world do whatever it does... Just focus on yourself and everything else will fall into place."

So, if you can give a bit more context with your advice, I would be happy to listen to it. But right now it just sounds like you're bypassing and being avoidant of switching to a more down to Earth perspective. 

Yeah yeah yeah.  

You are the problem. Understand it, observe it, learn about it. You guys think you can impose order on society. That’s not the way it works. Classic fragmentation. 

[RichardY]

11 minutes ago, Emerald said:

I agree with the statement, "Be the change you want to see in the world".

Was spoken by Gandhi who thought Blacks were sub-human to Indians when he worked in S.Africa.

He also slept with his nieces.

Compares blacks to savages in this BBC article.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-asia-india-34265882

[Jack River]

2 minutes ago, robdl said:

The mechanism of thought that wants to label/separate/group/categorize/compare/identify someone as "orange level being" is the same mechanism of thought responsible for racism/identifying-grouping another.   Thought wants to compulsively separate/compare/identify/label/group, whether it be based on race, or some conceptual stage model.

Yep. We are the problem. See what is. 

[Forestluv]

3 minutes ago, robdl said:

The mechanism of thought that wants to label/separate/group/categorize/compare/identify someone as "orange level being" is the same mechanism of thought responsible for racism/identifying-grouping another.   Thought wants to compulsively separate/compare/identify/label/group, whether it be based on race, or some conceptual stage model.

It’s a relative model for ease of conversation. Don’t get caught up in the model. 

To say eveyone is on the same developmental conscious level is incorrect in a relative world.

How can we help people raise their consciousness is the underlying question for me.  I’m cool with using any tool to help matters.

[Emerald]

Just now, Jack River said:

Yeah yeah yeah.  

You are the problem. Understand it, observe it, learn about it. You guys think you can impose order on society. That’s not the way it works. Classic fragmentation. 

Wow! You're so smart! 

I am the problem. I am the problem. I am the problem. I realized it now that you put it that way. (which by the way, I had an entire thread about how these biases effect me too)

So... is systemic racism solved now or are unarmed black people still being shot up in the street due to unconscious racial biases?

Oh... they still are. Oh well, that's okay. At least I am more self-aware and detached... which means that I have the most enlightened perspective relative to racial issue. I'm glad you pulled me up to your level.

[Outer]

4 minutes ago, Serotoninluv said:

I did not say you are limited to scientific quantification. 

Hiw would you become aware of your own unconscious biases?

Mate, you are pushing people to become aware of therefore measure unconscious biases in themselves, yet it's not proven to be accurate, because it changes each time you test for it.

[Forestluv]

5 minutes ago, RichardY said:

Was spoken by Gandhi who thought Blacks were sub-human to Indians when he worked in S.Africa.

He also slept with his nieces.

Compares blacks to savages in this BBC article.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-asia-india-34265882

Red Herring alert

[Forestluv]

1 minute ago, Outer said:

Mate, you are pushing people to become aware of therefore measure unconscious biases in themselves, yet it's not proven to be accurate, because it changes each time you test for it.

No, that is not what I am pushing for. I said the tests are getting better and better. One day the may be one tool (of many) that can reveal unconscious biases.

[robdl]

10 minutes ago, Serotoninluv said:

 

To say eveyone is on the same developmental conscious level is incorrect in a relative world.

 

I'm not denying differences between people, but the question is do we group/identify/categorize people based on those differences, and reinforce our own identify/self-image in the process?   Does this not breed further division-conflict-separation? 

Edited November 22, 2018 by robdl