Jordan Peterson on Moral Law

[Forestluv]

8 minutes ago, Etherial Cat said:

Outer's mind surely is ingenious. 

I totally want to pull Outer up into Green. I think his Green/Yellow version would be great to help Orange advance. 

[Forestluv]

@Sockrattes I would consider judgements based on racial features to be an expression of racism. 

Imagine Europeans coming into contact with Africans. Do you think they never used the color of their skin to distinguish “otherness”. To me, that’s one step away from saying they didn’t use physical features to distinguish themselves from rabbits.

[Outer]

6 minutes ago, Sockrattes said:

because only in a scientific-capitalistic society categorising humans is justified. Racism is not about violence. I think the distinction must be made here. It is about grouping humans into "races" and then proclaiming superiority.

It's Red/Blue values in an Orange scientific-capitalistic society. The science is complicated but it seems clear to me that the divisions of humans into races is arbitrary and socially constructed. From an alien to this planet perspective with the same understanding of genetics, they wouldn't create our typically "races", those used in the U.S, for instance. The Scandinavian countries are actually highly scientific and capitalistic, they run on social democracy. For them racism begins with grouping humans into races, which is why I am questioning those who have those beliefs in this thread, as even for "social justice" it's really counter intuitive on the long-term, if we are to aim for the stars and ideals.

[Outer]

12 minutes ago, Etherial Cat said:

Asking questions is easy, and it's also a way distract yourself. 

If you genuinely want to understand, you've got all the tools in your hand to answer those.

I'm just asking why you're making that observation. Note how  you're avoiding my question. That's not a nice way to have a discussion.

[Emerald]

5 minutes ago, Outer said:

I completely accurately described you in being neurotic about not seeming racist then. You're not undoing your own racism by placing value on skin color, as that's how racism evolves. The foundational belief of all racists is that races exist. No belief in races, not giving importance to race or color, and you will not be racist. However you managed to do just the opposite in that, by giving value to whatever skin color came up when you're imagining "a person walking into a bar". Just my thoughts.

If someone tells me "Imagine a person walking into a bar." I just spontaneously have an image of a white man walking into a bar. So, it's not a conscious decision. I'm not like, "Let me imagine it's a white guy doing it." It's just how my subconscious mind fills in the blanks when I'm not paying attention to my biases. So, I could write this off and say that there's no significance here, and that it isn't the result of social patterns that encourage the notion of white defaultism... but this would just be self-deception. And it would only serve to comfort me and my own ego... meanwhile people of color are being affected in a real and tangible way by this widespread systemic bias, that has subtle and pervasive effects on everyone.

But again, on the practical and subjective level, race does exist and everyone sees it. To claim that you've somehow transcended noticing race, is just a major self-deception. They did studies and found that babies even notice differences in skin color. It is only your fear of being labelled racist that makes you claim to not notice or care about race.... that's just the ego at play. If you really didn't care, you wouldn't be having this conversation with me.

So, it's just a white person's attempt to avoid uncomfortable awarenesses relative to race as well as their own potential racial biases and participation in systemic racism. That way, everything can remain the same and that you, as a white person, can stay in your own racial comfort zone. And everything remaining the same is good for you... but it's not good for anyone who is disenfranchised relative to the status quo.

So, people of color don't have a detached comfort zone they can retreat to. They don't have the privilege of saying, "Race doesn't exist" and just "transcend" the practical issues that are coming to them as a result of systemic racism. Black parents living in the ghetto who have their unarmed sons shot in the street can shout "Race doesn't exist!" as loud as they want to. And they can do all the mental gymnastics that they want. But it won't change the fact that systemic racism has had profound irreversible negative effects on their lives.

[Sockrattes]

10 minutes ago, Serotoninluv said:

@Sockrattes Do you believe that minds back then were incapable of perceiving physical differences between groups of people?

No i don't think so. Evolutionarywise there is little to no difference between humans from 10.000 BC to humans today. They had the same capabilities. The only difference are values and ideas. Spiral Dynamics is an evolution of ideas if you will.

Humans back then noticed physical differences. But those differences didn't matter, because there was no social value or any other inherent benefit in being a "racist". You could point finger at someone and say "damn this mongols are damn lazy", but there was no parliament to impose cuts in social security, or something.

[Jack River]

All of this racism/individualism/collectivist talk  is an invention-manifestation of thought (ego) dudes.

One opinion opposing another and an unwillingness to learn and understand the problem together with a common goal of understanding the problem. 

This thread is an example of what is actually happening in the world now. No relationship (isolation/alienation) dudes and dudetts

Resistance/attachment and therefore identification with our own accumulated knowledge/experience. One big self feeding loop of ? 

[Forestluv]

3 minutes ago, Emerald said:

 

But again, on the practical and subjective level, race does exist and everyone sees it. To claim that you've somehow transcended noticing race, is just a major self-deception. They did studies and found that babies even notice differences in skin color. It is only your fear of being labelled racist that makes you claim to not notice or care about race.... that's just the ego at play. If you really didn't care, you wouldn't be having this conversation with me.

Neural imaging trying yo detect unconscious biases is getting better and bette - including racism. I know this is a limited materialist approach, yet I think this type of science would help bridge the gap from Orange to Green. Orange loves science and once there is a scientific consensus of the neurolgy of unconscious racism, it will convince a lot of Orange level deniers.

And those that score high on unconcious biases tests, score low on conscious biases tests. They are unawre that they are biased.

[Forestluv]

@Jack River That is easy to say from a high conscious state of mind. Yet the reality is that low conscious mind states exist and we are trying to help raise consciousness. 

Help us out. How would you help raise the consciousness of a defensive Orange level being?

[Emerald]

Just now, Jack River said:

All of this racism/individualism/collectivist talk  is an invention-manifestation of thought (ego) dudes.

One opinion opposing another and an unwillingness to learn and understand the problem together with a common goal of understanding the problem. 

This thread is an example of what is actually happening in the world now. No relationship (isolation/alienation) dudes and dudetts

Resistance/attachment and therefore identification with our own accumulated knowledge/experience. One big self feeding loop of ? 

It's easy to take these kinds of stand-points, when you're not dealing with the consequences of these issues. This is why I don't default to "top shelf" perspectives like the non-dual perspective, as it isn't relevant to the situation. And these higher up perspectives can be used for spiritual bypassing and ignoring real world problem. 

Then, we can pat ourselves on the back for not getting involved and remaining "conscious" and detached. But it's just more avoidance and more ego. It is the invalidation of relative and practical perspectives... just using a different thought story about ego/non-duality/detachment.

[Outer]

1 minute ago, Emerald said:

If someone tells me "Imagine a person walking into a bar." I just spontaneously have an image of a white man walking into a bar. So, it's not a conscious decision. I'm not like, "Let me imagine it's a white guy doing it." It's just how my subconscious mind fills in the blanks when I'm not paying attention to my biases. So, I could write this off and say that there's no significance here, and that it isn't the result of social patterns that encourage the notion of white defaultism... but this would just be self-deception. And it would only serve to comfort me and my own ego... meanwhile people of color are being affected in a real and tangible way by this widespread systemic bias, that has subtle and pervasive effects on everyone.

But again, on the practical and subjective level, race does exist and everyone sees it. To claim that you've somehow transcended noticing race, is just a major self-deception. They did studies and found that babies even notice differences in skin color. It is only your fear of being labelled racist that makes you claim to not notice or care about race.... that's just the ego at play. If you really didn't care, you wouldn't be having this conversation with me.

So, it's just a white person's attempt to avoid uncomfortable awarenesses relative to race as well as their own potential racial biases and participation in systemic racism. That way, everything can remain the same and that you, as a white person, can stay in your own racial comfort zone. And everything remaining the same is good for you... but it's not good for anyone who is disenfranchised relative to the status quo.

So, people of color don't have a detached comfort zone they can retreat to. They don't have the privilege of saying, "Race doesn't exist" and just "transcend" the practical issues that are coming to them as a result of systemic racism. Black parents living in the ghetto who have their unarmed sons shot in the street can shout "Race doesn't exist!" as loud as they want to. And they can do all the mental gymnastics that they want. But it won't change the fact that systemic racism has had profound irreversible negative effects on their lives.

Your mind is neutral about what associations it creates, unless you think you've mastered some part of you, you can't master. I love this conversation as it makes me think, I don't have a fear of being labeled racist now, but I don't want to get pissed off and that would piss me off. Ultimately it doesn't matter what you think or imagine, it matters what you say. You're adding value to a neutral thinking process which is produced by inputs from the environment and your own genetics. You're observing that inputs change your thinking process, but I don't think that there's a systematic on-mass inputs which alters thinking process that leads to negative consequences for society. I just think that they are useless things that you should ignore, and not pay attention to, within yourself. I also think that all the non-racists who protest at social justice rallies should let go of their "white default-ism" labeled thoughts. You don't fight it or figure out where it came from. That's not letting go.

Clearly I've never said "black" people or anyone else who experience racism is going to dream that away by repeating that race doesn't exist. It might not exist in their mind, but it does in the racist. The one who is affected by the racist you can tell them that races exist, but you can't tell the racist the same thing, can you? If you want to stop them from being racist. Everyone must drop race. It doesn't work from telling the victim they do exist but you tell the oppressor they don't. The problem comes from the racist thinking they exist.

[Emerald]

3 minutes ago, Serotoninluv said:

Neural imaging trying yo detect unconscious biases is getting better and bette - including racism. I know this is a limited materialist approach, yet I think this type of science would help bridge the gap from Orange to Green. Orange loves science and once there is a scientific consensus of the neurolgy of unconscious racism, it will convince a lot of Orange level deniers.

And those that score high on unconcious biases tests, score low on conscious biases tests. They are unawre that they are biased.

That will probably yield some positive results for many people. 

But yes, it's always those that are less aware of their shadow, that end up being influenced more by it.

[Jack River]

3 minutes ago, Emerald said:

It's easy to take these kinds of stand-points, when you're not dealing with the consequences of these issues. This is why I don't default to "top shelf" perspectives like the non-dual perspective, as it isn't relevant to the situation. And these higher up perspectives can be used for spiritual bypassing and ignoring real world problem. 

Then, we can pat ourselves on the back for not getting involved and remaining "conscious" and detached. But it's just more avoidance and more ego. It is the invalidation of relative and practical perspectives... just using a different thought story about ego/non-duality/detachment.

We are the problem. There is no society. It all starts with me. Has nothing to do with “nonduality”

to much distortion guys. It’s all your fault  

Edited November 22, 2018 by Jack River

[Forestluv]

7 minutes ago, Outer said:

Your mind is neutral about what associations it creates, unless you think you've mastered some part of you, you can't master.

Are you aware that you have unconscious biases that you are unaware of?

[Emerald]

Just now, Jack River said:

We are the problem. There is no society. It all starts with me. 

I agree with the statement, "Be the change you want to see in the world". But defaulting to the individual perspective has very little efficacy in this scenario, as most of the issues we're dealing with aren't clear or solvable from that paradigm. 

You have to be able to zoom out from the individualist perspective to see how the whole, entire system is working. Only then, can we see the root cause of systemic racism and remedy the issue in an effective way.

Most people (not everyone but most) already have positive intentions relative to race. So, the problem doesn't lie in what is already known and the decisions of individuals. 

We have to be able to see how collective patterns and individual patterns work together as a system to maintain the patterns that contribute to systemic racism. 

So, to say "there is not society" is true from some perspectives. Ultimately a society is a just a combination of different individuals coming together to do different tasks.

In the same way, we could say that a forest is an illusion. This is true from some perspectives and untrue from others. From some perspectives, a forest is just a collection of individual trees that happen to exist in the same place. 

But if there is an issue in the forest, we may not be able to solve that issue by looking at all the trees as separate and unrelated systems. We have to realize that the trees together make up their own system. And we have to be able to open our eyes to the workings of that larger system to find the root causes of those problems and effective solutions for them.

So, to go around saying "there is no forest" when there is an issue in the forest, is just turning a blind eye to that issue. It won't solve it. It's just remaining in the comfort zone by switching to a paradigm where you don't have to do the labor of actually solving something.

This is what is meant by the metaphor, "missing the forest for the trees."

[Jack River]

6 minutes ago, Serotoninluv said:

@Jack River That is easy to say from a high conscious state of mind. Yet the reality is that low conscious mind states exist and we are trying to help raise consciousness. 

Help us out. How would you help raise the consciousness of a defensive Orange level being?

It all starts with me dude.

Are we going to continue clinging to “our” answers, ideas, opinions, or are we going to actually understand the problem together? 

This is an expression of thoughts tendency to seek security first and foremost. My ways is better than yours lol 

its exactly why things are the way they are. 

[Outer]

@Serotoninluv @Emerald

 

[Jack River]

2 minutes ago, Emerald said:

I agree with the statement, "Be the change you want to see in the world". But defaulting to the individual perspective has very little efficacy in this scenario, as most of the issues we're dealing with aren't clear or solvable from that paradigm. 

You have to be able to zoom out from the individualist perspective to see how the whole, entire system is working. Only then, can we see the root cause of systemic racism and remedy the issue in an effective way.

Most people (not everyone but most) already have positive intentions relative to race. So, the problem doesn't lie in what is already known and the decisions of individuals. 

We have to be able to see how collective patterns and individual patterns work together as a system to maintain the patterns that contribute to systemic racism. 

So, to say "there is not society" is true from some perspectives. Ultimately a society is a just a combination of different individuals coming together to do different tasks.

In the same way, we could say that a forest is an illusion. This is true from some perspectives and untrue from others. From some perspectives, a forest is just a collection of individual trees that happen to exist in the same place. 

But if there is an issue in the forest, we may not be able to solve that issue by looking at all the trees as separate and unrelated systems. We have to realize that the trees together make up their own system. And we have to be able to open our eyes to the workings of that larger system to find the root causes of those problems and effective solutions for them.

So, to go around saying "there is no forest" when there is an issue in the forest, is just turning a blind eye to that issue. It won't solve it. It's just remaining in the comfort zone by switching to a paradigm where you don't have to do the labor of actually solving something.

This is what is meant by the metaphor, "missing the forest for the trees."

Your not seeing my point. 

the collective and the individual are the same.  Start with you. That simple. 

We are the problem, let’s understand it heh. 

Edited November 22, 2018 by Jack River

[Forestluv]

11 minutes ago, Jack River said:

We are the problem. There is no society. It all starts with me. Has nothing to do with “nonduality”

to much distortion guys. It’s all your fault  

Ok. How would you suggest we help those with unconscious racial biases to increase their awareness?

[Outer]

2 minutes ago, Serotoninluv said:

Are you aware that you have unconscious biases that you are unaware of?

Which can't be measured accurately.