Jordan Peterson on Moral Law

[Outer]

10 minutes ago, Etherial Cat said:

Me? Nothing.

I just wanted to give you the tools to see and I think you're getting it.

Entertain the idea that your thinking goes to its logical conclusion, and is handled on a governance level, what would that look like?

[Sockrattes]

@Emerald Reality is a 4 dimensional fractal.

[Forestluv]

2 minutes ago, Sockrattes said:

@Serotoninluv Yes. But US wasn't defined along physical features. That's the main difference. And this is what racism defines.

I think physical features are one way to distinguish US vs THEM. There are other ways as well (nationality, language etc).

[Emerald]

Just now, Sockrattes said:

@Emerald Reality is a 4 dimensional fractal.

I could see the idea of a fractal being applicable in this sense of how patterns reflect through reality.

My channel is called the Diamond Net, based upon the Diamond Net of Indra.

The idea is that reality is an infinite net that stretches out in infinite dimensions. And at each of the vertices of the net lies a jewel. And in that jewel reflects all the other jewels in the net, which also reflect all the other jewels in the net, ad infinitum.

So, you could say that reality is both the one jewel, and that in that one jewel contains all the other jewels in the net which are infinite. So, the idea is very fractal-like as well.

 

[Outer]

1 minute ago, Serotoninluv said:

It is your responsibilty to discover this through a practice of meditation, self inquiry, direct experince, contemplation etc. It is not the responsibility of someone else to explain it to you in your terms and to your satisfaction.

Fortunately, Leo does explain these fundamental issues in his 65 principles. If you want to evolve higher, start there. Watch the video with an open mind.

The word consciousness raising was created by feminists in the 1960's, and it has nothing to do with spirituality. So in case you believe those things will answer it, I'm sorry, but that's not the case.

[Emerald]

28 minutes ago, Sockrattes said:

I'm going further than that. What i mean is that in stage blue racism was not existent.

Blue has group-thinking of course, but it was never about putting different groups into different levels of hierarchies. It's quite interesting actually. Racism emerged along with science, democracy, liberalism and capitalism.

That depends upon whether we consider colonialism a stage Orange or stage Red phenomenon. If we consider it Orange, then you could say that racism stems from stage Orange, because prior to that there was little to no interaction between those of other races.

But if we think of colonialism as stage Red, which feels more apt to me because of the warlord-like nature of the conquesters of the time as well as the blood-shed and direct domineering influence of those seeking to take over new lands, then we could say that Red is the primary intonation of racism, Blue the secondary, and Orange the tertiary... and even with Green having some residual racism; with each stage reflecting a decrease in intensity and bloodshed from the previous.

What are your thoughts on this?

[Forestluv]

6 minutes ago, Emerald said:

 

The idea is that reality is an infinite net that stretches out in infinite dimensions. And at each of the vertices of the net lies a jewel. And in that jewel reflects all the other jewels in the net, which also reflect all the other jewels in the net, ad infinitum.

So, you could say that reality is both the one jewel, and that in that one jewel contains all the other jewels in the net which are infinite. So, the idea is very fractal-like as well.

 

Oooh, I like that imagery.

In Leo’s latest SD video, he added in new  lines of development interconnecting the stages. Afterwards during contemplation, these new lines became interconnected with each other. All these various inputs from different dimensions appeared into a complex net. 

Is this along the lines of the Diamond imagery?

[Sockrattes]

@Serotoninluv

It is. But it was not an issue before the scientific revolution. (or better say stage orange)^^

Before modern racism, there were no explicitly racist societies, nor a finished mindset to judge and categorise people. 

 

@Emerald

I know your channel. That's really an awesome name for a Youtubechannel. Congrats on that.

Indras Net is buddhist, yes?

 

Would like to share this comment, which is somehow relevant, i guess.

https://www.actualized.org/forum/topic/27088-is-enlightenment-the-permanent-way-out-of-the-loop-new-video/?do=findComment&comment=307791

[Forestluv]

10 minutes ago, Outer said:

The word consciousness raising was created by feminists in the 1960's, and it has nothing to do with spirituality. So in case you believe those things will answer it, I'm sorry, but that's not the case.

Nice defense ?.

Words have relative meaning. The context is more important.

If the word consciousness worries you, then use another word like awarenees, growth, development, expansion etc. which ever word you are comfortable with and will not restrict you

[Outer]

25 minutes ago, Emerald said:

Also, I forgot to add before, white defaultism isn't really part of my shadow for the most part, but it used to be before I became conscious of it. I have integrated the awareness that I have been affected by notions of white defaultism. So, I notice when I fall into that pattern and can quickly get up out of it. Things you are aware of at not part of your shadow anymore. Now, that's not to say that I'm always perfectly conscious 100% of the time. I slip into unconsciousness and end up running the social scripts sometimes before I realize it. 

Understand that the only reason why I know that white defaultism exists is because I've noticed how this pattern has affected me and the way I think about the world, others, and myself as a white person. I am not regurgitating any talking points here. I'm telling you what I've directly observed in myself, and the patterns that I notice in myself that others also fall into. And I can also see the implications of those patterns on how society works in general. All you have to do is let go of preconceived notions and perceive what is there and has always been there in front of you.

Clearly you shouldn't default into any color, because none matters more than the other, so you shouldn't care if you think "person entering a bar" means a white person. But because you do think some matters more than others as a part of your Shadow you NEED to have another color than white when you imagine the scenario "person entering a bar" you probably even thought "why didn't I imagine a black person?" That means you put value on color in the first place to react. By not defaulting in any color, white color can arise in an imagination, but you're not even aware of it because it doesn't matter.

The truth of the matter is that your thinking probably just thinks of associations and creates a picture out of "person entering a bar" scenario, from where you've heard that before to movies. To update your future picture creating with a new association of being aware of which skin color you have an imagined person is just a reflection of your neurotic need to not seem racist, while it merely substantiates the "some colors matters more than others" belief, to the extent you want to imagine another color when "a person entering a bar" comes up to you.

Not defaulting into any color means not caring about colors, means giving up on the beliefs of division within humans into races.

[Forestluv]

21 minutes ago, Sockrattes said:

@Serotoninluv

It is. But it was not an issue before the scientific revolution. (or better say stage orange)^^

Before modern racism, there were no explicitly racist societies, nor a finished mindset to judge and categorise people. 

I’m not an expert on historical racism, yet it’s hard for me to imagine how a self would be unaware of physical feature differences as it constructed a sense of self relative to it’s own survival. Physical features of different groups is such an obvious cue for a self based on separation and survival. 

Do you not think there were rival tribes where each tribe thought the other tribe threatened their own survival? How did they distinguish “our tribe” from the “other tribe”? Sure they used facepaint and clothing to distinguish themselves. Yet, you don’t think physical features were ever used to distinguish? I find that hard to comprehend.

[Outer]

10 minutes ago, Serotoninluv said:

Nice defense ?.

Words have relative meaning. The context is more important.

If the word consciousness worries you, then use another word like awarenees, growth, development, expansion etc. which ever word you are comfortable with and will not restrict you

Self-inquiry is about the silence of the I-thought, it won't give you any other answer than silence, unless you're doing it wrong. As a part of a Native American tribe the shaman is going to tap you with a stick and say "Pay Attention" "Be without thought". As you watch the Bison herd run on the steppes.

[Forestluv]

10 minutes ago, Outer said:

Self-inquiry is about the silence of the I-thought, it won't give you any other answer than silence, unless you're doing it wrong. As a part of a Native American tribe the shaman is going to tap you with a stick and say "Pay Attention" "Be without thought". As you watch the Bison herd run on the steppes.

Another nice defense ?

If the term self inquiry is worrisome to you, do contemplation. . . 

From my POV, you are safe in your head and want to avoid the practice of taking a close look at your self and facing your self. It’s uncomfortable.

[Outer]

10 minutes ago, Etherial Cat said:

 Asking a question is always possible. Why is this relevant?

I am afraid you are using this as a self-deception mechanism to divert yourself from the point.

You're making an observation based on the belief that races are a thing, but you've not said why you are making that observation?

[Emerald]

13 minutes ago, Outer said:

Clearly you shouldn't default into any color, because none matters more than the other, so you shouldn't care if you think "person entering a bar" means a white person. But because you do think some matters more than others as a part of your Shadow you NEED to have another color than white when you imagine the scenario "person entering a bar" you probably even thought "why didn't I imagine a black person?" That means you put value on color in the first place to react. By not defaulting in any color, white color can arise in an imagination, but you're not even aware of it because it doesn't matter.

The truth of the matter is that your thinking probably just thinks of associations and creates a picture out of "person entering a bar" scenario, from where you've heard that before to movies. To update your future picture creating with a new association of being aware of which skin color you have an imagined person is just a reflection of your neurotic need to not seem racist, while it merely substantiates the "some colors matters more than others" belief, to the extent you want to imagine another color when "a person entering a bar" comes up to you.

Not defaulting into any color means not caring about colors, means giving up on the beliefs of division within humans into races.

Part of undoing racism is noticing whenever racist tendencies come up in ourselves. So, if I was of the belief, "I'm so enlightened that I'm past even noticing or caring about race.", then I would be bald-face lying to myself to avoid having to face with my own implicit biases and level of participation in systemic racism. 

There are a ton of people (mostly white people) deluding themselves into believing they are color blind and don't care about race at all. But you'll notice that when the topic comes up they get very emotional and defensive to hide their shadow from themselves. And they will argue with you tooth and nail just to prove to themselves and others that systemic racism isn't something that they could fall victim to.

Counterintuitively, a person who notices how deeply they are afflicted by the system of racism and the effects it has on their emotions, behavior, and daily life are far less likely to participate in the perpetuation of systemic racism. 

When one relegates their own racial biases to their shadow and ignores them, they don't just go away. They sneak into the driver's seat and take the wheel when they're in the blindspots of our own worldview. This is the way the shadow works. 

So, instead of running the "I'm not racist" loop over and over in our heads, it is best to get our ego out of the equation and really brutally honestly question that notion and consider that maybe we have been affected by systemic racism and its patterns and are actually participating in maintaining that system. 

Part of becoming more conscious is being able to consider whether or not we're currently unconscious.

[Sockrattes]

26 minutes ago, Emerald said:

That depends upon whether we consider colonialism a stage Orange or stage Red phenomenon. If we consider it Orange, then you could say that racism stems from stage Orange, because prior to that there was little to no interaction between those of other races.

But if we think of colonialism as stage Red, which feels more apt to me because of the warlord-like nature of the conquesters of the time as well as the blood-shed and direct domineering influence of those seeking to take over new lands, then we could say that Red is the primary intonation of racism, Blue the secondary, and Orange the tertiary... and even with Green having some residual racism; with each stage reflecting a decrease in intensity and bloodshed from the previous.

What are your thoughts on this?

Colonialism and imperialism are both clearly orange for me, because both are effects of consumerism if you will.

Colonialism is due to the privatization of sovereign rights. Namely the chartered companies. Formely blue aristocratic and monarchic nations granted  privileges to citizens and gave birth to the first "capitalistic"-corporations.

So for me it makes sense, that the term racism is fully orange, because only in a scientific-capitalistic society categorising humans is justified. Racism is not about violence. I think the distinction must be made here. It is about grouping humans into "races" and then proclaiming superiority.

[Emerald]

31 minutes ago, Sockrattes said:

@Emerald

I know your channel. That's really an awesome name for a Youtubechannel. Congrats on that.

Indras Net is buddhist, yes?

Thank you! Yes. It's a Buddhist story based upon the Hindu God Indra.

Edited November 22, 2018 by Emerald

[Outer]

1 minute ago, Emerald said:

Part of undoing racism is noticing whenever racist tendencies come up in ourselves. So, if I was of the belief, "I'm so enlightened that I'm past even noticing or caring about race.", then I would be bald-face lying to myself to avoid having to face with my own implicit biases and level of participation in systemic racism. 

There are a ton of people (mostly white people) deluding themselves into believing they are color blind and don't care about race at all. But you'll notice that when the topic comes up they get very emotional and defensive to hide their shadow from themselves. And they will argue with you tooth and nail just to prove to themselves and others that systemic racism isn't something that they could fall victim to.

Counterintuitively, a person who notices how deeply they are afflicted by the system of racism and the effects it has on their emotions, behavior, and daily life are far less likely to participate in the perpetuation of systemic racism. 

When one relegates their own racial biases to their shadow and ignores them, they don't just go away. They sneak into the driver's seat and take the wheel when they're in the blindspots of our own worldview. This is the way the shadow works. 

So, instead of running the "I'm not racist" loop over and over in our heads, it is best to get our ego out of the equation and really brutally honestly question that notion and consider that maybe we have been affected by systemic racism and its patterns and are actually participating in maintaining that system. 

Part of becoming more conscious is being able to consider whether or not we're currently unconscious.

I completely accurately described you in being neurotic about not seeming racist then. You're not undoing your own racism by placing value on skin color, as that's how racism evolves. The foundational belief of all racists is that races exist. No belief in races, not giving importance to race or color, and you will not be racist. However you managed to do just the opposite in that, by giving value to whatever skin color came up when you're imagining "a person walking into a bar". Just my thoughts.

[Emerald]

1 minute ago, Sockrattes said:

Colonialism and imperialism are both clearly orange for me, because both are effects of consumerism if you will.

Colonialism is due to the privatization of sovereign rights. Namely the chartered companies. Formely blue aristocratic and monarchic nations granted  privileges to citizens and gave birth to the first "capitalistic"-corporations.

So for me it makes sense, that the term racism is fully orange, because only in a scientific-capitalistic society categorising humans is justified. Racism is not about violence. I think the distinction must be made here. It is about grouping humans into "races" and then proclaiming superiority.

I suppose that makes sense, because the societies form which the conquesters stemmed from were deeply Blue and were spurred on by the monarchies of the time. And the drive toward land expansion is certainly very Orange. Plus, they mostly went for gold, God, and glory... so two Oranges and one Blue.

Perhaps it could be said, however, that the individual conquesters were probably a mix of Red, Blue, and Orange as seen in their methods and motivations for taking over new lands. 

[Sockrattes]

23 minutes ago, Serotoninluv said:

I’m not an expert on historical racism, yet it’s hard for me to imagine how a self would be unaware of physical feature differences as it constructed a sense of self relative to it’s own survival. Physical features of different groups is such an obvious cue for a self based on separation and survival. 

Do you not think there were rival tribes where each tribe thought the other tribe threatened their own survival. How did they distinguish “our tribe” from the “other tribe”? Sure they used facepaint and clithing to distinguish themselves. Yet, you don’t think physical features were ever used to distinguish? I find that hard to comprehend 

Yeah that's hard to grasp, i get that, but you should check out the wikipediapage for example. There is not a single date mentioned older than 15th century. There is a lot of research about "racism" in the past and most of the key aspects, which defines modern racism are not meet back then. That's mind blowing. For me, it was just logical, that there must be some kind of racism throughout human history. But in fact, those varieties can't hardly be called racism. That's why i'm full of hope, that racism will die one day once and for all.^^