Jordan Peterson on Moral Law

[Forestluv]

12 minutes ago, SOUL said:

From my understanding a cell that has mutated to switch off the natural apoptosis process and reproductive regulation will cause that mutated cell to rapidly turn into tumor of many cells like that mutated cell. Yes, as you suggest the body will spur angiogenesis to feed the rapidly growing area of cells unbeknownst that it is feeding a monster..... sort of like youtube videos and the alt-right... hah.

Yes. For simplicity, I didn’t include anti-apoptotic features of cancer cells. 

Cancer is a developmental process that includes a collection of mutations that confer new behaviors to the cell line, including: disregulated cell division, immune system evasion, angiogenic stimulation, metastais, anti-apoptosis. 

[Sockrattes]

Jordan Petersons critique on progressivism and liberalism... and feminism and any other -ism is always explicit. And his solutions are always implicit. That's his strategy to stay inviolable.

But you can clearly tell, that he is just an ordinary conservative, when you think through what he is saying. He is a Republican masked as an progressiv. 

 

Here is a good analysis:

 

[Outer]

1 minute ago, Etherial Cat said:

Have a look at Leo's episode about SD Green and above.

Leo displays well my conclusions and desires. 

No,no no. I'm asking you.

[Forestluv]

2 minutes ago, Outer said:

I don't understand, sorry.

Imagine a person’s developmental level is a binary mode of thinking. They cannot undertand spectral thinking. For example, they see each person as a “good” or “bad” person. They cannot see that people can be on a spectrum of good and people can be a mixture if good and bad.

This person yells “show me spectrums with bimodal evidence!!”. How would we explain spectrums  within a bimodal mode of thinking? We can’t. We would be limited to “either / or” thinking and spectrums are beyond either /or. The person will need to become aware if their limitation and let go of their bimodal thinking, then become aware of spectral thinking.

Similarly, a rationalist is limited to reason, objectivism and logic. They demand logical evidence for post-logical modes.They demand objective evidence for relativity, They demand material evidence fir the immaterial.  To develop higher, they need to become aware of their limitation, let go, then become aware of higher modes. 

[Sockrattes]

@Etherial Cat

Only a few people know, but racism is in fact a stage orange phenomena.

Racists and many other people tend to claim, that there always was racist behaviour among men, but that's not true.

So you are absolutely right. If you want to get rid of (latent) racism you have to evolve into stage green.

[Outer]

Just now, Etherial Cat said:

It is a self-deception mechanism. I am not going to do this.

I'll engage on the content of my post though, if you want to.

Yes, I was asking you, not asking you to explain some video.

What do you want to happen? What changes? What is your ideal world? That's what I'm wondering. What does it mean when you say "White are the majority and the most powerful group" to you? What does that entail?

Quote

Because white are the majority and the most powerful group (capital wise, politically, and from a cultural representation standpoint). 

Racism as an oppression system is a system built by a majority, used against a minority in other to rally against the other. The minority is excluded by the dominant group which is taking advantage of its position to pull the cover on its side.  As a consequence, the minority experience another reality where it fight for scraps without having a voice,  because at best,  the self-deception mechanism of the majority make them blind to the phenonmenom or at worse, it consciously suppress it.

I hope that helps you see

 

[Forestluv]

4 minutes ago, Outer said:

No,no no. I'm asking you.

Also watch Leos video on 65 principles.

If you want to evolve higher, it is *your* responsibility to explore other perspectives and expand your awareness. It is not the responsibility of someone else to “prove” it to you.

[Outer]

1 minute ago, Serotoninluv said:

Also watch Leos video on 65 principles.

If you want to evolve higher, it is *your* responsibility to explore other perspectives and expand your awareness. It is not the responsibility of someone else to “prove” it to you.

That's what I'm doing, except I don't even know your perspective, that's what I'm trying to figure out.

 

[Forestluv]

1 minute ago, Sockrattes said:

@Etherial Cat

Only a few people know, but racism is in fact a stage orange phenomena.

Racists and many other people tend to claim, that there always was racist behaviour among men, but that's not true.

So you are absolutely right. If you want to get rid of (latent) racism you have to evolve into stage green.

Yea, racism is most prevalent stage Orange and below. It begins to dissolve at stage Green. For example, a person won’t be able to acknowledge or explore their own subconscious biases until stage Green.

[Emerald]

42 minutes ago, SOUL said:

The only way to raise awareness about it is to perpetuate it? It's the very same type of moralizing bias and behavior that JP is using when he creates the impression he's on the good, right and true side and anyone else who doesn't agree with him is bad, wrong and lying.

Raising awareness with healthy discussion that doesn't immediately make others feel persecuted for something that they may not even be aware of since it is quite often unseen to them as you point out will gain more acceptance to accomplish the goal than using accusatory language.

You are good with words, use them in ways to liberate people from the bias-behavior, not trigger them into a defensive posture.

This is why I make a point to state that the system of racism is mostly an invisible hand issue, that stems from the workings of the system as opposed to direct malicious intent. So, unconsciousness itself is the primary enemy, not individuals.

But I do believe in being as frank and direct as possible for the sake of understanding and optimization of nuance in that understanding. And I don't like to sugar coat anything, as it is not necessary and tends to coddle and muddy the waters. The social system is very impersonal anyway, so just being accurate won't make anyone feel implicated or demonized... unless they were going to project that anyway no matter what anyone has to say on the matter that they disagree with. 

The way I see it is that if I am as perceptive, thorough, and honest as possible then the people who are the least emotionally attached to their current paradigm will be able to have an "aha!" moment and be able to have more clarity around this situation. People who are very emotionally attached to their perspective are unlikely to change no matter what, unless they share the value of becoming more conscious. 

So, the way I see it is that I'm very unlikely to make those that are triggered emotionally by this topic budge at all. But there are a ton of people who aren't triggered emotionally who will be able to recognize these patterns if I lay them out accurately and thoroughly, as their emotional attachments won't stand in the way of their perception. 

[Forestluv]

1 minute ago, Outer said:

That's what I'm doing, except I don't even know your perspective, that's what I'm trying to figure out.

 

Have you watched the 65 principles video?

From my POV, you have a lot of blocks which Leo discusses in this video. Getting bogged down into an argument of whether band aids are racist is distracting you from deeper fundamental issues going on. 

It’s not about the band aids. It’s deeper than that.

[Sockrattes]

5 minutes ago, Serotoninluv said:

Yea, racism is most prevalent stage Orange and below. It begins to dissolve at stage Green. For example, a person won’t be able to acknowledge or explore their own subconscious biases until stage Green.

I'm going further than that. What i mean is that in stage blue racism was not existent.

Blue has group-thinking of course, but it was never about putting different groups into different levels of hierarchies. It's quite interesting actually. Racism emerged along with science, democracy, liberalism and capitalism.

[Outer]

20 minutes ago, Serotoninluv said:

Imagine a person’s developmental level is a binary mode of thinking. They cannot undertand spectral thinking. For example, they see each person as a “good” or “bad” person. They cannot see that people can be on a spectrum of good and people can be a mixture if good and bad.

This person yells “show me spectrums with bimodal evidence!!”. How would we explain spectrums  within a bimodal mode of thinking? We can’t. We would be limited to “either / or” thinking and spectrums are beyond either /or. The person will need to become aware if their limitation and let go of their bimodal thinking, then become aware of spectral thinking.

Similarly, a rationalist is limited to reason, objectivism and logic. They demand logical evidence for post-logical modes.They demand objective evidence for relativity, They demand material evidence fir the immaterial.  To develop higher, they need to become aware of their limitation, let go, then become aware of higher modes. 

I understand that, but I don't understand this:

45 minutes ago, Serotoninluv said:

What would happen if you let go of your definition of systemic racism and genuinely inquired about it’s assumptions? What if you let go your attachment and identification with this definition and opened yourself up to explore and expand your your consciosness in this area?

 

7 minutes ago, Serotoninluv said:

Have you watched the 65 principles video?

From my POV, you have a lot of blocks which Leo discusses in this video. Getting bogged down into an argument of whether band aids are racist is distracting you from deeper fundamental issues going on. 

It’s not about the band aids. It’s deeper than that.

No, I haven't.

What is the deeper fundamental issues? Here's your opportunity to explain these 'deeper' fundamental issues, and why they are issues. I've already thought about it, and I know what I care about, and that's to decrease racism, one of many issues, for a future Utopia.

5 minutes ago, Etherial Cat said:

Well, most of the effective power is held by white people. Hard-power and soft-power akin. Have you never noticed? 

I understand how you're thinking, but what I wonder is what you're going to do with it?

Edited November 22, 2018 by Outer

[Sockrattes]

8 minutes ago, Etherial Cat said:

It actually emerged with pseudo-science.

Yes. But that's not what i meant.^^

I'm speaking about the scientific revolution, which could be stated as one of the starting points of stage orange. Historically speaking.

In the end that's what Spiral Dynamics is all about. Different ideas and values emerged together in a specific timeframe, under specific conditions. One could say, racism is a consequence of the scientific reductionism. That doesn't make it scientific valuable or anything. But it is a logical consequence. When people start to count, divide and group things, it doesn't take long for them to do the same with other humans.

Edited November 22, 2018 by Sockrattes

[Forestluv]

1 minute ago, Etherial Cat said:

Its also found under Orange. But yeah, it stops at stage green.

I think Green is where racism begins to dissolve. Yet, unhealthy Green can demonize lower stages and have nuanced forms of racism. Yet, it is *much* less than Orange and below. 

Major values of Green are equality, multiculturalism and inclusion. Yet, one can experience growing pains through this stage. Becoming aware of my unconscious biases and white privilege was very uncomfortable at times and I experienced a lot of resistance entering and evolving through Green. Yet, a Green mode of being is sooo liberating. It is so much more fulfilling than Orange. One of my resistances to Yellow was I didn’t want to leave the beauty of Green. Yelliw appeared as so cold.

[Emerald]

1 hour ago, Outer said:

What the heck do you mean with white default? It's you who think white is the default color. Because you're projecting your Shadow everywhere. Most people don't give a shit about skin color. You want to really think they chose the white-brown color because of "white default sm" or because they just wanted a color to match as large of a customer base or because of some other reason? I just think people think Band-Aid have the color of Band-Aid, not white. You can probably prove it to yourself by looking at the color in other countries, even for other companies. The band-Aid color doesn't match my skin color, AT ALL, it "sticks out like a sore thumb" like that person who invented "Diversity in Healing" Band-Aids have said it does for other "skin colors". 

Also, I forgot to add before, white defaultism isn't really part of my shadow for the most part, but it used to be before I became conscious of it. I have integrated the awareness that I have been affected by notions of white defaultism. So, I notice when I fall into that pattern and can quickly get up out of it. Things you are aware of at not part of your shadow anymore. Now, that's not to say that I'm always perfectly conscious 100% of the time. I slip into unconsciousness and end up running the social scripts sometimes before I realize it. 

Understand that the only reason why I know that white defaultism exists is because I've noticed how this pattern has affected me and the way I think about the world, others, and myself as a white person. I am not regurgitating any talking points here. I'm telling you what I've directly observed in myself, and the patterns that I notice in myself that others also fall into. And I can also see the implications of those patterns on how society works in general. All you have to do is let go of preconceived notions and perceive what is there and has always been there in front of you.

[Forestluv]

11 minutes ago, Sockrattes said:

I'm going further than that. What i mean is that in stage blue racism was not existent.

Blue has group-thinking of course, but it was never about putting different groups into different levels of hierarchies. It's quite interesting actually. Racism emerged along with science, democracy, liberalism and capitalism.

Blue has a simple hierarchy: US (moral) and THEM (immoral).

[Emerald]

1 hour ago, Serotoninluv said:

Yea. At the organismal level, there is a collective of cells which gives rise to the mind-body. When cancer emerges, the body knows the cancer is interfering with healthy function and development of the body. The body does it’s best to eliminate the cancer. It does so at a system level (the immune system has many branches of defense) and at an i dividual level (an indidual natural killer cell fighting and indidual cancer cell). Yet, cancer cells can disguise themselves to appear “normal” to the body. One could imagine that the cancer cell “perceives” itself as normal and not harmful to the body. It is unaware of it’s “unconscious biases”. E.g. the cancer cell consumes more than it’s fair share of resources. A cancerous tumor will re-route the body’s blood supply to over-feed itself - totally unaware how this is harming the collective body. Individual cancer cells are aware of other individual cells, yet unware of how all the cells together are within a higher conscious mind-body. . . To cure cancer, we need to observe and become aware of the details of cancer at an individual cellular level and the big picture systems level. To observe details within a systems context.

With racism, the higher collective consciousness is society. Individual persons are aware of themself and other individual people they interact with - similar to how each cell is aware of other cells it interacts with. Yet, each individual person is unaware that together they all are within a higher social conscious field. This social conscious field can sense racism is an extreme form of separation identity that interferes with a healthy progression of social consciousness. Yet, racism disguises itself so it doesn’t appear like it is extreme separation identity that is interfering with social progress. To cure racism, I think we need to observe details of racism at the individual level and the big picture systems level. To observe details within a systems context.

I totally agree. It's always interesting to me how two totally different systems tend to reflect similar patterns. I started realizing this when I learned how to paint. I realized a lot of metaphors about reality that way. And I never would have guessed so many patterns echo through reality that way.

[Sockrattes]

@Serotoninluv Yes. But US wasn't defined along physical features. That's the main difference. And this is what racism defines.

In the Roman Empire for example, you could be a slave wether you are white or black. You could be a Centurio also. Your features simply didn't matter.

[Forestluv]

13 minutes ago, Outer said:

 

What is the deeper fundamental issues? Here's your opportunity to explain these 'deeper' fundamental issues, and why they are issues. 

It is your responsibilty to discover this through a practice of meditation, self inquiry, direct experince, contemplation etc. It is not the responsibility of someone else to explain it to you in your terms and to your satisfaction.

Fortunately, Leo does explain these fundamental issues in his 65 principles. If you want to evolve higher, start there. Watch the video with an open mind.