Jordan Peterson on Moral Law

[SOUL]

9 minutes ago, Emerald said:

I think cancer is an apt metaphor.

You're missing the point. It's all bias and behavior although when one characterizes one kind as a disease it doesn't resolve the situation, it just perpetuates the negative bias and behavior pattern. Yes, we are trying to recognize and alter the bias and behavior that creates discrimination and suffering to cease it but your choice of metaphor perpetuates a negative perspective no matter how apt or accurate you think it is.

[Emerald]

Just now, Outer said:

@Emerald Have you considered the possibility that the reason why Band-Aid was a white-brown color was because that's was the majority skin color of their customers, or some other reason like the same reason why bandages or lab coats are the color white and not out of Racism?

It's a possibility that this is the case. But even so, it doesn't take away the fact that there is a white default that is assumed in society at large. So, bandaid color could be a direct reflection of that... or it could just be a coincidence. But either way, the systemic force of white defaultism still stands. And that ambiguity that's created from the organic nature of the system where certain non-symptoms could be read as symptoms, is part of how that system runs as well. 

That's why I said before, that focusing toward symptoms as opposed to root causes can be a fruitless effort and a wild goose chase. 

So, it's important to avoid missing the forest for the trees, by focusing too much on individual symptoms that come from the system as opposed to the system as a whole as the core pattern that those symptoms stem from. 

[Emerald]

4 minutes ago, SOUL said:

You're missing the point. It's all bias and behavior although when one characterizes one kind as a disease it doesn't resolve the situation, it just perpetuates the negative bias and behavior pattern. Yes, we are trying to recognize and alter the bias and behavior that creates discrimination and suffering to cease it but your choice of metaphor perpetuates a negative perspective no matter how apt or accurate you think it is.

So, you're saying that using the cancer metaphor is a poor metaphor to use because of people's negative association with cancer? So, it would make people feel like I'm calling them a cancer and blaming them for these issues, when it is an invisible hand issue? So, it would turn more people off, even if it's an apt metaphor?

Perhaps this is the case. But all the same, I can't think of a clearer metaphor than an illness. What causes problems that has symptoms and root causes that is more straight forward than an illness? 

So, unfortunately, this is the best metaphor for this issue. If you can think of a better one to talk about this 'problem/symptoms/root' dynamic in relatable ways that don't imply an illness, then I'll be more than happy to hear your suggestions. But I can't think of anything more understandable and relatable than that.

[Outer]

14 minutes ago, Emerald said:

It's a possibility that this is the case. But even so, it doesn't take away the fact that there is a white default that is assumed in society at large. So, bandaid color could be a direct reflection of that... or it could just be a coincidence. But either way, the systemic force of white defaultism still stands. And that ambiguity that's created from the organic nature of the system where certain non-symptoms could be read as symptoms, is part of how that system runs as well. 

That's why I said before, that focusing toward symptoms as opposed to root causes can be a fruitless effort and a wild goose chase. 

So, it's important to avoid missing the forest for the trees, by focusing too much on individual symptoms that come from the system as opposed to the system as a whole as the core pattern that those symptoms stem from. 

What the heck do you mean with white default? It's you who think white is the default color. Because you're projecting your Shadow everywhere. Most people don't give a shit about skin color. You want to really think they chose the white-brown color because of "white default sm" or because they just wanted a color to match as large of a customer base or because of some other reason? I just think people think Band-Aid have the color of Band-Aid, not white. You can probably prove it to yourself by looking at the color in other countries, even for other companies. The band-Aid color doesn't match my skin color, AT ALL, it "sticks out like a sore thumb" like that person who invented "Diversity in Healing" Band-Aids have said it does for other "skin colors".

 

Edited November 22, 2018 by Outer

[Outer]

"Racism, previously referred to as raselary, is the notion that humanity can be categorized into different races, each adding a set of properties and ranked by value. Racism is and has been the basis for discrimination or segregation."

Norwegian wikipedia on Racism.

[SOUL]

4 minutes ago, Emerald said:

So, you're saying that using the cancer metaphor is a poor metaphor to use because of people's negative association with cancer? So, it would make people feel like I'm calling them a cancer and blaming them for these issues, when it is an invisible hand issue? So, it would turn more people off, even if it's an apt metaphor?

Perhaps this is the case. But all the same, I can't think of a clearer metaphor than an illness. What causes problems that has symptoms and root causes that is more straight forward than an illness? 

So, unfortunately, this is the best metaphor for this issue. If you can think of a better one to talk about this 'problem/symptoms/root' dynamic in relatable ways that don't imply an illness, then I'll be more than happy to hear your suggestions. But I can't think of anything more understandable and relatable than that.

Well, you know that you are perpetuating a bias-behavior that creates discrimination and suffering by willingly participating with using some metaphor because you think it is more important to use it than eliminating that bias-behavior cycle then you are part of the metaphor you use. Your own bias-behavior is contributing to it, not altering or eliminating it.

[Emerald]

8 minutes ago, Outer said:

What the heck do you mean with white default? It's you who think white is the default color. Because you're projecting your Shadow everywhere. Most people don't give a shit about skin color. You want to really think they chose the white-brown color because of "white default sm" or because they just wanted a color to match as large of a customer base or because of some other reason? I just think people think Band-Aid have the color of Band-Aid, not white. You can probably prove it to yourself by looking at the color in other countries, even for other companies. The band-Aid color doesn't match my skin color, AT ALL, it "sticks out like a sore thumb" like that person who invented "Diversity in Healing" Band-Aids have said it does for other "skin colors". 

To explain to you, let me bring up my points from earlier about white defaultism that you left on the table to focus on my smaller and  more ambiguous point about the color of band-aids...

"This is also reflected in the terms that we use to describe Americans who are of different races. Black people are called African Americans, and this is true no matter how long their family has resided in the United States. The black family and their ancestors could have been living in the United States for 400 years, but they are still called African American.

Meanwhile, we don't refer to white people as European American. And even if a white person's parents came from Europe, if that white person was born in the United States then they will just be referred to as an American. So, white people don't get a signifier like all other races and ethnicities, which also is a reflection of white defaultism.

And all minorities that live in the states get signifiers that suggest they are variations upon the white default. Even Native Americans, have the signifier of being "Native" as the qualifier upon being American, despite the fact that they have the most right to just be called American.

Then, if someone says, a person walked into a bar, the image that comes to mind is usually a picture of a white man walking into a bar, as person as an idea = white person. 

And this is an implicit bias that we get inundated with from a very early age because of cultural understandings and representation in the media. 

So, it takes a lot of awareness of this issue to not project this white defaultism onto reality, as it is such a cultural and psychological groove that enforces a lot of harmful mindsets around race and belonging. So, it even branches out and has many other effects on how people interact with and perceive people of color. 

Also, to be white and seen as default has the effect of coming off as "race neutral" to most people. So, white people get the benefit of not having people react to their race very often, as it is seen as the norm and blends into the background. So, white people get significantly fewer uncomfortable reactions to their race, where people of color would have to take other's reaction to their race into consideration really often. 

Also, being race neutral creates a comfort zone of racelessness in white people's minds. So, white people tend to become really sensitive and avoidant of matters that deal with race. White people tend to get upset and uncomfortable when they're in a situation that their race becomes a focus because they're not used to it. And that anxiety tends to get projected onto people of color, so people of color have to carefully navigate the waters in discussions about race with white people. And white people tend to not listen to grievances relative to race because they feel blamed and put on the spot. And they often have world-views that minimise the focus on race in general. So, it is difficult for people in minority groups to get people in the majority group to listen because of the majority group not being used to having attention drawn to their race and having anxieties and guilt around racial issues being brought up."

[Emerald]

3 minutes ago, SOUL said:

Well, you know that you are perpetuating a bias-behavior that creates discrimination and suffering by willingly participating with using some metaphor because you think it is more important to use it than eliminating that bias-behavior cycle then you are part of the metaphor you use. Your own bias-behavior is contributing to it, not altering or eliminating it.

How do you think we should address these systemic issues if not by raising awareness about them in relatable ways? 

[Outer]

1 minute ago, Emerald said:

How do you think we should address these systemic issues if not by raising awareness about them in relatable ways? 

So relatable. So loving. So compassionate. So looking into the sky and aiming at the highest ideal.

[Forestluv]

7 minutes ago, Emerald said:

Great analogy. In fact, this analogy could be applied to all things within the personal and collective shadow and how they remain unconscious. 

Yea. At the organismal level, there is a collective of cells which gives rise to the mind-body. When cancer emerges, the body knows the cancer is interfering with healthy function and development of the body. The body does it’s best to eliminate the cancer. It does so at a system level (the immune system has many branches of defense) and at an i dividual level (an indidual natural killer cell fighting and indidual cancer cell). Yet, cancer cells can disguise themselves to appear “normal” to the body. One could imagine that the cancer cell “perceives” itself as normal and not harmful to the body. It is unaware of it’s “unconscious biases”. E.g. the cancer cell consumes more than it’s fair share of resources. A cancerous tumor will re-route the body’s blood supply to over-feed itself - totally unaware how this is harming the collective body. Individual cancer cells are aware of other individual cells, yet unware of how all the cells together are within a higher conscious mind-body. . . To cure cancer, we need to observe and become aware of the details of cancer at an individual cellular level and the big picture systems level. To observe details within a systems context.

With racism, the higher collective consciousness is society. Individual persons are aware of themself and other individual people they interact with - similar to how each cell is aware of other cells it interacts with. Yet, each individual person is unaware that together they all are within a higher social conscious field. This social conscious field can sense racism is an extreme form of separation identity that interferes with a healthy progression of social consciousness. Yet, racism disguises itself so it doesn’t appear like it is extreme separation identity that is interfering with social progress. To cure racism, I think we need to observe details of racism at the individual level and the big picture systems level. To observe details within a systems context.

[Emerald]

10 minutes ago, Joseph Maynor said:

You guys don't even fully appreciate what Leo is saying here.  Or what I think Leo is saying here, to be fair to Leo, I don't want to put words in Leo's mouth.  See -- it doesn't click with you guys.  It doesn't register.  You don't grok it.  There's something that you're still missing, still failing to grasp.

My impression of @Leo Gura statement (correct me if I'm wrong), is that he probably sees this issue as something that will always lead to pointless squabbling and going around in circles, as opposed to lending to actual positive results. That's normally how these topics go on the forum. And Leo usually shuts down topics like this because people end up falling back on the same unconscious talking points.

My impression of what you believe Leo is doing, is that he's taking a more Turquoise detached approach to the issue and kind of trusting that the system will work out without our intervention. Or perhaps, that the world is Maya and that it's pointless to be invested in matters of illusion and duality. But I don't believe this is why Leo made that statement... as I think he was focused more in a down-to-Earth way. 

My impression is that Leo sees the need for raising consciousness in society and is interested in systems thinking and social engineering. So, he sees it as a necessity that society evolves up to Green. But that he just doesn't trust that these discussions will produce fruitful results toward that end because a lot of JP fans and people in general just end up going around in circles and playing mental gymnastics. So, it seems that he doubts the efficacy of these sorts of discussions.

If this is his viewpoint, I personally disagree with this. I think that showing people issues from different perspectives can make lightbulbs go off. And even if the person I'm talking to won't get it, others passing by will. And this will help toward creating the social shift.

But this is just my impression. I could be wrong.

[Outer]

7 minutes ago, Serotoninluv said:

Yea. At the organismal level, there is a collective of cells which gives rise to the mind-body. When cancer emerges, the body knows the cancer is interfering with healthy function and development of the body. The body does it’s best to eliminate the cancer. It does so at a system level (the immune system has many branches of defense) and at an i dividual level (an indidual natural killer cell fighting and indidual cancer cell). Yet, cancer cells can disguise themselves to appear “normal” to the body. One could imagine that the cancer cell “perceives” itself as normal and not harmful to the body. It is unaware of it’s “unconscious biases”. E.g. the cancer cell consumes more than it’s fair share of resources. A cancerous tumor will re-route the body’s blood supply to over-feed itself - totally unaware how this is harming the collective body. Individual cancer cells are aware of other individual cells, yet unware of how all the cells together are within a higher conscious mind-body. . . To cure cancer, we need to observe and become aware of the details of cancer at an individual cellular level and the big picture systems level. To observe details within a systems context.

Just stop.

Edited November 22, 2018 by Outer

[SOUL]

4 minutes ago, Emerald said:

How do you think we should address these systemic issues if not by raising awareness about them in relatable ways? 

The only way to raise awareness about it is to perpetuate it? It's the very same type of moralizing bias and behavior that JP is using when he creates the impression he's on the good, right and true side and anyone else who doesn't agree with him is bad, wrong and lying.

Raising awareness with healthy discussion that doesn't immediately make others feel persecuted for something that they may not even be aware of since it is quite often unseen to them as you point out will gain more acceptance to accomplish the goal than using accusatory language.

You are good with words, use them in ways to liberate people from the bias-behavior, not trigger them into a defensive posture.

[Forestluv]

@Outer I think you are missing the forest for the trees.

Perhaps it might help to zoom out and look at the big picture. Contemplate “what is the big picture of systemic racism?”. Don’t ask us to “prove” it to you with “facts” and “evidence” to which you have logical defense mechanisms against. Look for your assumptions, become an expert observer of the world around you without pre-conceived notions. 

Once you can “see” systemic racism, your consciousness will greatly expand and you will be able to see how individual micro racism is within systemic macro racism. 

It’s like a camera. If you use a micro lens to take a macro photo, it will come out blurry. Yet, if you use a macro lens to take the photo, you can zoom into the photo and observe details within the context of the larger pucture. You won’t get lost in the details because you have the bigger picture in mind.

[Outer]

7 minutes ago, Serotoninluv said:

@Outer I think you are missing the forest for the trees.

Perhaps it might help to zoom out and look at the big picture. Contemplate “what is the big picture of systemic racism?”. Don’t ask us to “prove” it to you with “facts” and “evidence” to which you have logical defense mechanisms against. Look for your assumptions, become an expert observer of the world around you without pre-conceived notions. 

Once you can “see” systemic racism, your consciousness will greatly expand and you will be able to see how individual micro racism is within systemic macro racism. 

It’s like a camera. If you use a micro lens to take a macro photo, it will come out blurry. Yet, if you use a macro lens to take the photo, you can zoom into the photo and observe details within the context of the larger pucture. You won’t get lost in the details because you have the bigger picture in mind.

Yes I won't ask you to prove it to me with facts and evidence. Because those are my defense systems. Listen to what you sound like.

I'm not denying systematic racism, but I define it very clearly as an organization who has been overrun by racism, for instance.

Edited November 22, 2018 by Outer

[SOUL]

9 minutes ago, Serotoninluv said:

To cure cancer, we need to observe and become aware of the details of cancer at an individual cellular level and the big picture systems level. To observe details within a systems context.

From my understanding a cell that has mutated to switch off the natural apoptosis process and reproductive regulation will cause that mutated cell to rapidly turn into tumor of many cells like that mutated cell. Yes, as you suggest the body will spur angiogenesis to feed the rapidly growing area of cells unbeknownst that it is feeding a monster..... sort of like youtube videos and the alt-right... hah.

There has been some research that shows that some cannabinoid(s) by still some unknown mechanism switches back on the apoptosis process of those cells so the tumor will begin killing itself. As well as the cannabinoids by some still unknown mechanism spur angionecrosis to starve it.

The research is still early to know for sure but it seems the endocannabinoid system may have function of being a 'switchboard' where it passes information or blocks information between systems and within cells. I had an old laptop with dozens of bookmarks to the different studies/research and such about them that is gone now. I haven't taken the time to locate all of them all again, I should do that some day,

[Forestluv]

7 minutes ago, SOUL said:

Raising awareness with healthy discussion that doesn't immediately make others feel persecuted for something that they may not even be aware of since it is quite often unseen to them as you point out will gain more acceptance to accomplish the goal than using accusatory language.

You are good with words, use them in ways to liberate people from the bias-behavior, not trigger them into a defensive posture.

This is *extremely* difficult to do with a mind that is locked into a perspective and defensive. 

This is one of the most important skills to develop at the Yellow level to help pull people up the spiral. Yet, it is a very difficult skill to develop. I think Emerald has developed this skill well in many areas. Some minds are particularly hard to open.

Also, threads aren’t just about the conflict within an individual mind in a thread. It’s not just the one user in a thread. There are many minds reading this thread that are open to progressing upward through these resistances. Emerald isn’t just speaking to Outer, she is speaking to other minds reading this thread, but not comnenting. This can help raise the average consciousness on the forum. 

[Forestluv]

19 minutes ago, Outer said:

Yes I won't ask you to prove it to me with facts and evidence. Because those are my defense systems. Listen to what you sound like.

I'm not denying systematic racism, but I define it very clearly as an organization who has been overrun by racism, for instance.

You don’t understand what I mean by “facts” and “evidence”. What I mean is that you are asking someone to prove higher level modes of thinking/being with lower level modes of thinking being. One cannot ask for logic to prove a trans-logical mode. 

What would happen if you let go of your definition of systemic racism and genuinely inquired about it’s assumptions? What if you let go your attachment and identification with this definition and opened yourself up to explore and expand your your consciosness in this area?

[Outer]

1 minute ago, Etherial Cat said:

Because white are the majority and the most powerful group (capital wise, politically, and from a cultural representation standpoint). 

Racism as an oppression system is a system built by a majority, used against a minority in other to rally against the other. The minority is excluded by the dominant group which is taking advantage of its position to pull the cover on its side.  As a consequence, the minority experience another reality where it fight for scraps without having a voice,  because at best,  the self-deception mechanism of the majority make them blind to the phenonmenom or at worse, it consciously suppress it.

I hope that helps you see

So what conclusions do you make from that type of thinking? What do you want to happen?

[Outer]

Just now, Serotoninluv said:

You don’t understand what I mean by “facts” and “evidence”. What I mean is that you are asking someone to prove higher level modes of thinking/being with lower level modes of thinking being. One cannot ask for logic to prove a trans-logical mode. 

What would happen if you let go of defintion of systemic racism and genuinely inquired about it’s assumptions? What if you let go your attachment and identification with this definition and opened yourself up to explore and expand your your consciosness in this area?

I don't understand, sorry.