Jordan Peterson on Moral Law

[Outer]

9 minutes ago, Joseph Maynor said:

The individualistic lens goes too far though and always needs a correction from the collectivist lens.  Ditto for the collectivist lens.  That's why every individualistic stage is followed by a collective stage for a while and vice versa.  The greatest joy of the individual is to give his or her vision to the collective.  There's a paradox between the individual and the collective and you gotta respect both ends of that paradox. 

If the actual pendulum swung from individualistic to collectivism you wouldn't be more than just an ant in an ant hill or a cell in an organism, your vision to the collective wouldn't be more than the collective speaking of itself. You wouldn't have any responsibility as there's only the collective, just like a hundred people in a riot is just a riot and not a hundred individuals. Your body wouldn't be more than a slave, your characteristics wouldn't be more than what it meant to the collective. What you think of you wouldn't matter to you. That you are conscious doesn't matter at all. What matters is what you can build for the collective with your hands. Your decisions would be controlled by an intelligent machine deciding where you should work or who you should date.

5 minutes ago, Emerald said:

This is just more of Orange's Individualist resistance to Green's focus toward the Collectivist perspective, and a way to write off Green and demonize it. So, no. Individualism and Collectivism are both valid but imperfect perspectives, and both have utility relative situations and lack utility relative to certain other situations. So, a Yellow person would look at a given situation and see what was most appropriate in a given situation and choose depending on the scenario. And if they were looking from a social systems perspective as to how to effect major change in the world and creating space for expanded consciousness and higher quality of living on the macro, they would be wise to choose the Collectivist lens for dealing with these issues and creating actionable solutions.

And from the perspective of social systems and everyday living, race is anything but a hallucination. It has very real impacts on how people are affected within a social system and how the entire system runs. And to ignore race as a reality is to create a blindspot and relegate all patterns that exist relative to race to the personal and collective shadow. It requires mental gymnastics to deny that these realities exist. This is why it's unconscious as it exists in the realm of Orange's shadow that it doesn't like to acknowledge, as it undermines the seeming airtightness of the Orange worldview to an Orange person. So, there will be many attempts to rationalize away these aspects of reality and invalidate them as "playing identity politics."

In other words, denying the existence of the subjective collective reality relative to any identity signifier and its potential effects on individuals, just creates blindspots and unconsciousness and is rooted in denial of aspects of the social systems and how they work. It insulates us from the awareness of the barriers to humanity's expanding consciousness and liberation that looms upon the horizon. 

Like I knew, you are operating out of Red/Blue collective hallucination of for instance race. I've grown up in a Green society and we were taught that there is only one race and that is the human race. Yes you can choose whether you have the collective or individual lens depending on the situation, I do so as well, but if you have the collective lens without the individual lens nested in it or vice-versa, you are not Yellow in my opinion, but I don't know much about spiral dynamics. I have just seen a picture of a spiral and Yellow was Collective Individualism.

 

 

[Emerald]

56 minutes ago, Outer said:

Like I knew, you are operating out of Red/Blue collective hallucination of for instance race. I've grown up in a Green society and we were taught that there is only one race and that is the human race. Yes you can choose whether you have the collective or individual lens depending on the situation, I do so as well, but if you have the collective lens without the individual lens nested in it or vice-versa, you are not Yellow in my opinion, but I don't know much about spiral dynamics. I have just seen a picture of a spiral and Yellow was Collective Individualism.

Race is not a hallucination in the practical sense. It definitely exists as a real experiential reality. And people are treated differently on the basis of it. So, to say that race isn't a real experiential reality is to engage in the mental gymnastics needed to ignore race-related issues and your emotional responses to it and maintain the status quo within your comfort zone. It's all a mind-game that's designed to ignore certain realities to keep one's worldview in tact and avoid transcending it and relinquishing attachments to certain beliefs. 

Now, you can look at race in the vacuum of a more detached perspective that looks at race from a purely scientific view and say that everyone is a mix of different genes and that race is technically a false divide between people. And that's true from the scientific perspective. And technically, this perspective can help undo more overt forms of racism that society was dealing with 60 years ago and before. So, at one point this was a really helpful truth... but it doesn't work at the level we're facing racial issues at in present day as we're dealing with issues higher up on the spiral of human evolution. So, it's not the appropriate truth for the given circumstances and needs that we have as a society.

So, when this scientific and detached perspective is viewed as the ultimate perspective on race, it is reductionist and edits out the truth and validity of the practical, subjective, and experiential reality of race. And this view is only true and helpful from very limited perspectives. So, to cling to this scientific truth as the "real" truth is to fail to be multi-perspectival and realize that there is more than just one truth about race and more than one valid perspective to see the world through, and that the validity of the perspective will vary based upon practical application.

And the primary practical application that this truth is used for in the current day is simply to avoid uncomfortable subjective truths about race and how social systems react to it. So, this perspective on race is true from certain perspectives... but it isn't very helpful and invalidates and obscures other more helpful truths that will actually create expansion and integration within the human species and improve the quality of life for many people. 

And practically, everyone on the planet notices race as a phenomenological reality except people who are literally blind. And to claim otherwise is just self-deception and assuring one's self that "I'm not racist. I'm color blind". So, using this reductionist truth that "race is an illusion" to invalidate the experiential truth that "race is a subjectively, practically, and phenomenologically real and noticeable, and it has real effects on people and the world" is just using the more convenient truth to lie to one's self and create a blindspot whenever cognitive dissonance comes up. Don't put it past the mind to be able to self-delude and use truth from one paradigm for the purposes of dishonesty and self-deception to create a blindspot relative to another paradigm.

So, let's be honest. You definitely notice race. I definitely notice race. You are not color blind. I am not color blind. There are very clear visual signifiers for race that people (including small babies) notice. And theres is nothing wrong with noticing that race is a phenomenological reality. Color-blindness is not a virtue to be aspired to anyway, as it is just a lie and a way to sweep problems under the rug that affect real people every day. 

Edited November 21, 2018 by Emerald

[Forestluv]

10 hours ago, Outer said:

Your point about inter-racial relationship is an example of your mind being delusional thinking there is such a thing of different races, even though both stage Green and Orange (Science) rejects such a notion. 

I’m speaking from a meta view of Green perspective. Orange, Green, Yellow and Turquoise will have different perspectives on race.

Just because I state a Green perspective or value, or what might help an Orange to Green transition, doesn’t mean that I believe or identify with the perspective. I simply see it as a view within a relative world. If I am speaking to Orange, I don’t communicate through a Turquoise lens.

Green perceives race. Multiculturalism and racial equality are two of their highest values!

And dating outside one’s race is *one* way an Orange mind can expand to see new perspectives and transition into Green. I know this conceptually and from direct experience. There are many other ways as well.

A geneticist would see race differently. They would view race via allelic frequencies. A different perspective.

[Strikr]

10 hours ago, Emerald said:

Race is not a hallucination in the practical sense. It definitely exists as a real experiential reality. And people are treated differently on the basis of it. So, to say that race isn't a real experiential reality is to engage in the mental gymnastics needed to ignore race-related issues and your emotional responses to it and maintain the status quo within your comfort zone. It's all a mind-game that's designed to ignore certain realities to keep one's worldview in tact and avoid transcending it and relinquishing attachments to certain beliefs. 

Now, you can look at race in the vacuum of a more detached perspective that looks at race from a purely scientific view and say that everyone is a mix of different genes and that race is technically a false divide between people. And that's true from the scientific perspective. And technically, this perspective can help undo more overt forms of racism that society was dealing with 60 years ago and before. So, at one point this was a really helpful truth... but it doesn't work at the level we're facing racial issues at in present day as we're dealing with issues higher up on the spiral of human evolution. So, it's not the appropriate truth for the given circumstances and needs that we have as a society.

So, when this scientific and detached perspective is viewed as the ultimate perspective on race, it is reductionist and edits out the truth and validity of the practical, subjective, and experiential reality of race. And this view is only true and helpful from very limited perspectives. So, to cling to this scientific truth as the "real" truth is to fail to be multi-perspectival and realize that there is more than just one truth about race and more than one valid perspective to see the world through, and that the validity of the perspective will vary based upon practical application.

And the primary practical application that this truth is used for in the current day is simply to avoid uncomfortable subjective truths about race and how social systems react to it. So, this perspective on race is true from certain perspectives... but it isn't very helpful and invalidates and obscures other more helpful truths that will actually create expansion and integration within the human species and improve the quality of life for many people. 

And practically, everyone on the planet notices race as a phenomenological reality except people who are literally blind. And to claim otherwise is just self-deception and assuring one's self that "I'm not racist. I'm color blind". So, using this reductionist truth that "race is an illusion" to invalidate the experiential truth that "race is a subjectively, practically, and phenomenologically real and noticeable, and it has real effects on people and the world" is just using the more convenient truth to lie to one's self and create a blindspot whenever cognitive dissonance comes up. Don't put it past the mind to be able to self-delude and use truth from one paradigm for the purposes of dishonesty and self-deception to create a blindspot relative to another paradigm.

So, let's be honest. You definitely notice race. I definitely notice race. You are not color blind. I am not color blind. There are very clear visual signifiers for race that people (including small babies) notice. And theres is nothing wrong with noticing that race is a phenomenological reality. Color-blindness is not a virtue to be aspired to anyway, as it is just a lie and a way to sweep problems under the rug that affect real people every day. 

all I see is ANT, you're all fucking ants to me   black ant, white ant, doesn't matter !

what a tons of bs to defend a bs idea, didn't read the whole thing.

if 99% have the mindset of a rock, it doesn't make it solid shit.

if an infant is educated by wolf ( it happen'd ), believe it or not, he believe he is a wolf, not a human.

so what you believe in your little box isn't reality, but for you it is very real at the moment, I agree it's real then.

Edited November 21, 2018 by Strikr

[Emerald]

1 hour ago, Strikr said:

what a tons of bs to defend a bs idea, didn't read the whole thing.

That's because you were experiencing the discomfort of cognitive dissonance and went into defense mode by an idea that contradicts your worldview. Read the whole thing without the getting triggered into an emotional response, and you will see that what I am saying is valid.

So, if you are honest, you don't see everyone as ants. You might think this thought in the abstract and are used to intellectually zooming out. And certainly, that is one perspective among many. From that perspective, we are little specs on a small rock floating in infinite space. But that is not the end-all-be-all of perspectives. There are also experiential perspectives that are subjective, practical, and down to Earth. And those perspectives are also valid. Be a little more open minded and embrace a worldview flexible enough to be multi-perspectival, so that you can perceive truths from more than just one paradigm.

So, if a person of color talks about their experiences and struggles as a person of color, interjecting with the ant narrative isn't going to help them deal with the social systems that disenfranchise them. It's just going to invalidate their perspective because you've chosen to remain blissfully ignorant to the uncomfortable realities that surround race.

Imagine a black woman living in the ghetto who had a twelve year old son that was gunned down by police when he was playing in the front yard and minding his own business. Telling her that race is an illusion will fall on deaf ears. Race is obviously a major factor in that woman's life, and people react to her and her family members differently because of it. And in this case, it cost her son's life. 

Race is a real experiential reality, and so is racism. And it's usually only white people who like the "there's no such thing as race" narrative because it keeps us in a state of not having to realize how messed up things are. It lets us stay in a little bubble that's detached from real life, and safely nestled into reductionist perspectives. Er go... using the truths from one paradigm to obscure truths from another paradigm.

Edited November 21, 2018 by Emerald

[Strikr]

49 minutes ago, Emerald said:

That's because you were experiencing the discomfort of cognitive dissonance and went into defense mode by an idea that contradicts your worldview. Read the whole thing without the getting triggered into an emotional response, and you will see that what I am saying is valid.

So, if you are honest, you don't see everyone as ants. You might think this thought in the abstract and are used to intellectually zooming out. And certainly, that is one perspective among many. From that perspective, we are little specs on a small rock floating in infinite space. But that is not the end-all-be-all of perspectives. There are also experiential perspectives that are subjective, practical, and down to Earth. And those perspectives are also valid. Be a little more open minded and embrace a worldview flexible enough to be multi-perspectival, so that you can perceive truths from more than just one paradigm.

So, if a person of color talks about their experiences and struggles as a person of color, interjecting with the ant narrative isn't going to help them deal with the social systems that disenfranchise them. It's just going to invalidate their perspective because you've chosen to remain blissfully ignorant to the uncomfortable realities that surround race.

Imagine a black woman living in the ghetto who had a twelve year old son that was gunned down by police when he was playing in the front yard and minding his own business. Telling her that race is an illusion will fall on deaf ears. Race is obviously a major factor in that woman's life, and people react to her and her family members differently because of it. And in this case, it cost her son's life. 

Race is a real experiential reality, and so is racism. And it's usually only white people who like the "there's no such thing as race" narrative because it keeps us in a state of not having to realize how messed up things are. It lets us stay in a little bubble that's detached from real life, and safely nestled into reductionist perspectives. Er go... using the truths from one paradigm to obscure truths from another paradigm.

no that's because your ant brain modulate too much for my eagle brain to process !!

man you're so in your bubble, keep playing the victim, you're doing it just very fine.

Edited November 21, 2018 by Strikr

[Emerald]

4 minutes ago, Strikr said:

no that's because your ant brain modulate too much for my eagle brain to process !!

man you're so in your bubble, keep playing the victim, you're doing it just very fine.

Sounds legit. 

[Outer]

15 hours ago, Emerald said:

Race is not a hallucination in the practical sense. It definitely exists as a real experiential reality. And people are treated differently on the basis of it. So, to say that race isn't a real experiential reality is to engage in the mental gymnastics needed to ignore race-related issues and your emotional responses to it and maintain the status quo within your comfort zone. It's all a mind-game that's designed to ignore certain realities to keep one's worldview in tact and avoid transcending it and relinquishing attachments to certain beliefs. 

It is a hallucination, but since most people are delusional you can play into it but at the same time help them transcend it. By talking of the scientific evidence and what kind of society evolves from placing emphasis on "race" rather than individuals.

15 hours ago, Emerald said:

Now, you can look at race in the vacuum of a more detached perspective that looks at race from a purely scientific view and say that everyone is a mix of different genes and that race is technically a false divide between people. And that's true from the scientific perspective. And technically, this perspective can help undo more overt forms of racism that society was dealing with 60 years ago and before. So, at one point this was a really helpful truth... but it doesn't work at the level we're facing racial issues at in present day as we're dealing with issues higher up on the spiral of human evolution. So, it's not the appropriate truth for the given circumstances and needs that we have as a society.

Yes it is arbitrary and not based on evidence, basically just appearance. If someone is operating out of a belief that 'races' exist and these people are these races and IS racist, I won't go tell the person who is experiencing the racism that it's just a hallucination. I'm not that autistic. I'm just telling you that it's not a long-term belief or good story for homo sapiens and it seems as you understand that. Racism is after all founded upon a hallucination.

 

15 hours ago, Emerald said:

And practically, everyone on the planet notices race as a phenomenological reality except people who are literally blind.

Not sure about that.

15 hours ago, Emerald said:

So, let's be honest. You definitely notice race. I definitely notice race. You are not color blind. I am not color blind. There are very clear visual signifiers for race that people (including small babies) notice. And theres is nothing wrong with noticing that race is a phenomenological reality. Color-blindness is not a virtue to be aspired to anyway, as it is just a lie and a way to sweep problems under the rug that affect real people every day. 

I'd not even call it race, I'd just call it skin color, for instance. People do have different appearances, even among groupings which people subjectively place people in. "Race" only matters when people discriminate against a subjective group created in the mind' of the racist, for instance. Describing appearance is useful in other context, though rare, but then it can be explained by for instance skin color.

Edited November 21, 2018 by Outer

[AlwaysBeNice]

On 11/17/2018 at 2:53 PM, AlwaysBeNice said:

I don't think it's very sensical to be afraid, because it's the Self, (though fear can arise and that's not something that has to be seen as a bad experience per se even, sensation/perception), but I just thought this video is so rad.

 

[Outer]

4 hours ago, Joseph Maynor said:

You’re still operating with the logic that Emerald is wrong.  What if you and her just see things differently and have different visions for how you want to do your work in life?  Why does there have to be a objective judgment at all?  You don’t need to prove your vision to anybody.  It’s just your vision.  Vision is not a “right answer” that one gleans from the back of a textbook.  Vision is something that is authentically yours that you half-discover and half-create.  Emerald has her own idiosyncratic issues that she’s uniquely driven to address in her life’s work and so do you.  We all do.  The key is to find your authentic and idiosyncratic vision and actualize it, not to debate it intellectually.  Why?  Because your issues remain your issues and you’re driven to solve your issues.  Your deepest issues are much deeper than any kind of intellectual debate.  You need to find the vision that you’re driven to create and love.  That’s what you want to find.  Do you know your vision?  See?  You wanna find and actualize your vision and not worry so much about intellectually debating other people’s visions. 

I'm operating out of the logic that Emerald is wrong by her own logic. I've written into detail the problem here:

16 hours ago, Outer said:

The problem is the collective hallucinations which each stage shares with each other, a green is sharing the hallucination of race with a red, so they reinforce each other's delusions to keep one another game going. It is mutually beneficial to the Green and the Red. The Green telling a non-Red who isn't delusional their delusion, it spreads. If another person comes along and says race is a social construction, or mostly irrelevant for the average person, from a Big Picture science perspective, both will fight him. A person in the Green stage can't for instance make conspiracy theories about a supposed patriarchy of a certain race, like if they were lizard men, if their collective hallucination isn't entertained. 

I do not want to hear what you say what you perceive to be my race or my privilege is as it's your delusion, not mine. Nor do I want to write an essay of your delusion of me. Ineffability is who we are, not delusions. Your point about inter-racial relationship is an example of your mind being delusional thinking there is such a thing of different races, even though both stage Green and Orange (Science) rejects such a notion. The racial social construction is based on a few traits that are observable, actual genetics is more complicated and whether our social construction completely matches the genetic data is very questionable. An alien that comes to Earth wouldn't probably divide people into different groups based on for instance appearance like skin color.

 

[Outer]

 

[Outer]

 

[Forestluv]

22 minutes ago, Outer said:

I'm operating out of the logic that Emerald is wrong by her own logic. 

And what if you operate trans-logically? ? 

[Outer]

4 minutes ago, Serotoninluv said:

And what if you operate trans-logically? ? 

Not sure what that means.

 

[Emerald]

@Outer I'm trying really hard to explain this to you, but it's not working out too well. I will try one more time.

You are still not able to open up and hold space for paradoxes and shake free of the uni-perspectival paradigm that you're currently stuck down in. You will never be able to evolve out of Orange unless you see the validity of Green and release resistance to it.

So, when I talk about the subjective, practical, and down-to-Earth perspectives about race as being valid AND the scientific perspective about race being valid at the same time, it doesn't quite make sense to you. You're still in the notion that there is one perspective that is correct (or more correct) and that all other perspectives are invalid. So, you're in an "either/or" mindset about race, instead of in a holistic/integrative perspective on it. So, you try to invalidate the practical perspectives on race as an experiential reality, by cleaving to truths about race that are reductionist, deconstructionist, and detached from the subjective human experience and the emotional reality of being alive.

So, when I say that race is a real experiential reality that has practical implications for how individuals are treated and systems run, this is true. When you say that race is an illusion form the scientific perspective that there is no clear delineations between racial groups other than by phenotype, this is also true.

So, it is in being able to reconcile the paradox that both of these perspectives, though seemingly contradictory, are true from the standpoint of certain paradigms. 

But if we are looking to improve the status quo and to remove barriers to consciousness for humanity at large, one of these truths is helpful in aiding awareness and the other is usually used to obscure the truths that are aiding awareness. And this is what you and so many others are doing. 

So, claiming that race is an illusion is just using the truth to create blindspots that serve the function of keeping you stuck in your current paradigm where you feel safe and secure. In order to become more conscious, you must learn to let go of your attachments to the beliefs that make up the paradigm you currently reside within.

[Forestluv]

6 minutes ago, Outer said:

Not sure what that means.

 

It is a mode of being, which includes logic and is more expansive than logic.

[Outer]

@Emerald I don't deny the experiential reality of race for many people, what I am denying is that to hold on to that as if it was true is not only, in most cases, backwards for society, it is also scientifically questionable. If I'm talking with anyone I will tell them that yes you might group homo sapiens into races, but it is scientifically questionable, and it is in most cases not useful at all. If someone is being discriminated because of their race, by a racist, I will then tell them that that racist is founded upon and attached to the unscientifically classification of groups of people into races. I will also tell them that we're more like consciousness if we take the time to question who or what we think we are or who or what people have said we are, if the situation is ripe for that.

 

 

[Outer]

Actually in Green society, racism is defined to be systems of beliefs, concepts, worldviews or ideologies where the human species can be divided into races. I think that is accurate, as it is the foundational belief of racists in an Orange or lower society. I'm not saying it isn't above Orange. I'm just trying to state that by this definition many people in the U.S, who aren't racist by their definition, would be racist.

You can look up racism on the norwegian or swedish wikipedia for instance and translate the first sentence or two.

Edited November 21, 2018 by Outer

[Emerald]

1 minute ago, Outer said:

@Emerald I don't deny the experiential reality of race for many people, what I am denying is that to hold on to that as if it was true is not only, in most cases, backwards for society, it is also scientifically questionable. If I'm talking with anyone I will tell them that yes you might group homo sapiens into races, but it is scientifically questionable, and it is in most cases not useful at all. If someone is being discriminated because of their race, by a racist, I will then tell them that that racist is founded upon and attached to the unscientifically classification of groups of people into races. I will also tell them that we're more like consciousness if we take the time to question who or what we think we are or who or what people have said we are, if the situation is ripe for that.

Someone who is an overt and intentional racial supremacist is someone who could benefit from the insight that race is an illusion. This is true that ultimately they are projecting too much meaning onto race as an existential reality that implies some value or lack-there-of onto a particular race. That's why I said before that this truth was helpful when society as a whole were at an earlier point of development where we were less conscious is general and projected a lot more meanings onto race. Understanding that insight really helped us get out from under the most overt forms of institutionalized racism.

But in present day, we're dealing with the racism at a deeper and more subtle level that is still mostly in the collective shadow. And it is only people who are in Green and above that will be able to perceive of the existence of more subtle systemic patterns of racism. People in Orange will be largely unconscious to these patterns because they are directly in the blindspot of the Orange worldview. And because Orange values meritocracy, the realization that there are certain systemic riggings within society is very dangerous to Orange's beliefs in the world as being fair and meritocratic.

So, thinking of racism as something that comes only from overt racists also tends to reflect the idea of Orange Individualism in thinking of racism as a relatively uncommon character flaw that an individual has. People in Green and Yellow think about racism as a pattern within systems that are best dismantled... which requires a high degree of awareness relative to the subjective experiential truths about race to avoid feeding into (at Green) and avoid feeding into and actively dismantling (at Yellow).

Orange doesn't possess this awareness, so it cleaves to its ideas about how individual racists intentionally cause racism... so don't hate anyone and you won't be complicit in racism. Race is an illusion, so we shouldn't pay attention to it anyway. We should strive to be color blind because that means we, as individuals have character. So, it is not able to notice collective "invisible hand" patterns that maintain a status quo based in racial hegemony. So, it doesn't see any practical value in focusing toward the collective perspective.

[Outer]

Let's see if Emerald ignores this.

25 minutes ago, Outer said:

Actually in Green society, racism is defined to be systems of beliefs, concepts, worldviews or ideologies where the human species can be divided into races. I think that is accurate, as it is the foundational belief of racists in an Orange or lower society. I'm not saying it isn't above Orange. I'm just trying to state that by this definition many people in the U.S, who aren't racist by their definition, would be racist.

You can look up racism on the norwegian or swedish wikipedia for instance and translate the first sentence or two.