Jordan Peterson on Moral Law

[Forestluv]

@Outer One doesn’t abandon lessons learned from lower levels. Like 5th grade builds in 4th grade. You don’t aboandon everything you’ve learned from 4th grade. 

Their is a pendulum swing from a self-sacrificing orientation to a self-centered orientation. Back and forth. But not really abandoning 

JP isn’t misogynist / racist enough for red / low blue

[Outer]

12 minutes ago, Serotoninluv said:

@Outer One doesn’t abandon lessons learned from lower levels. Like 5th grade builds in 4th grade. You don’t aboandon everything you’ve learned from 4th grade. 

But you did abandon Orange individualism if you embrace "Green" collectivism and identity politics. (which is more like tribal Red) You won't move to Collective Individualism (Stage Yellow) without it.

Edited November 20, 2018 by Outer

[SOUL]

36 minutes ago, Emerald said:

That's true. I am being a bit generous with my numbers. But the main thing I was trying to drive across is that his ideological ways are not noticed by a lot of people. So, it becomes the pill inside the peanut butter, that people just don't notice they're taking

But the example you brought up is a perfect example of how he twists things.

In one video that I watched from him, he was talking about IQ. And he was saying that he had a client with an IQ of 85. And he had to teach that guy how to fold letters, and it took him over 40 hours to teach him just how to do that satisfactorily.

Now, he never advocated for genocide of all people with low IQs. And he never made any implications about race in the video. 

But his entire comments section was rife with Alt-Right talking points about how "black people have an average IQ of 85". And lots of people were advocating for genocide against those who had lower IQs because of the burden that they place upon society. And there were lots of people mixing up both these lines of thought on race and IQ and ethnic/IQ cleansing. 

This was really the first time I had realized what he was doing. He even said in one of his videos, (paraphrased) 'Watch the effect that a person is having, and you will find their intentions'. And that really rings true with him. 

He never says anything for sure that you could point out as advocating for regressive and dangerous ideologies. But if you look at the effect that his words have on people, you will see the effect he's trying to have. 

I prefer not to view it as two 'sides' because that is a dualistic mindset but many people do including JP and they frame their morality in a theological duality of good and evil.

The one side wants to be intolerant of others diversity of just being who they are and call those others evil as they call their own belief good based on just belief and maybe some book. That strange part is this side for many centuries have perpetrated intolerance by demonizing, ostracizing and terrorizing any others motivated by just their belief against those who didn't believe as they do. They still want to so this and do whenever they can.

That's kind of what bigotry is defined as, is it not?

All the other 'side' wants, the ones they think are evil and want to discriminate against is to not be called evil and be discriminated against. They just want to be who they are without discriminating against others because of anyone's belief.

Is that bigotry? Are those 'two sides' even equivalents?

JP is trying to wrap that ancient theological duality in the political clothing of ideological opinion to obscure that it is belief based bigotry. Mixing in scientific sounding anecdotes to lend an air of objectivity to the metaphorical stories sort of like creationism for pop psychology.

He keeps on perpetuating the faux theological duality that creates bitter vitriolic divisiveness.

[Outer]

"Until Yellow, there is a HUGE amount of ego attachment to the value system, meaning Blue, Orange, and Green love nothing more than nitpicking and shitslinging each other."

This thread.

Move to Yellow guys.

[SOUL]

1 hour ago, Outer said:

If you think the Pareto principle is only due to corruption and nowhere due to competence, like the grocery stores you buy your food from, then I have the good news is that it's mostly not due to corruption. Income isn't only about working hard.

What? That makes no sense, where did I say it's only due to corruption? That's rubbish man, I said no such thing, haha. No, it just means ratios are all over the place and there are many variables that contribute to them. Pareto aint no Fibonacci or fractals but people wave it around like a magic wand on anything they want.

1 hour ago, Outer said:

I took up the original article and it was 30% of the ants do 70% of the work while digging tunnels.

See? Haha. Hey, whatever man, 70-30 or 80-20 that's close enough, right? Any numbers work for Pareto if there's a point to be made, huh. Those dam lazy leftist ants!

[Outer]

5 minutes ago, SOUL said:

What? That makes no sense, where did I say it's only due to corruption? That's rubbish man, I said no such thing, haha. No, it just means ratios are all over the place and there are many variables that contribute to them. Pareto aint no Fibonacci or fractals but people wave it around like a magic wand on anything they want.

Manipulating the economic and social system is corruption in my eyes. If you think the Pareto principle is only due to economic and social manipulation you don't know that our systems is founded upon competence. That's essentially how Universities recruit people. Based on competence.

5 minutes ago, SOUL said:

See? Haha. Hey, whatever man, 70-30 or 80-20 that's close enough, right? Any numbers work for Pareto if there's a point to be made, huh. Those dam lazy leftist ants!

70-30 is very close to the Pareto principle.

Edited November 20, 2018 by Outer

[SOUL]

20 minutes ago, Outer said:

Manipulating the economic and social system is corruption in my eyes. If you think the Pareto principle is only due to economic and social manipulation you don't know that our systems is founded upon competence. That's essentially how Universities recruit people. Based on competence.

You are stuck in stage brown

20 minutes ago, Outer said:

70-30 is very close to the Pareto principle.

Oh yea, stage brown for sure. Baha

Edited November 20, 2018 by SOUL

[Outer]

30 minutes ago, SOUL said:

You are stuck in stage brown

Oh yea, stage brown for sure. Baha

I think you should read this quote:

"Until Yellow, there is a HUGE amount of ego attachment to the value system, meaning Blue, Orange, and Green love nothing more than nitpicking and shitslinging each other."

[luckieluuke]

My general feeling about JP is that he presents solid facts that our irrational culture finds provocative.
Like him saying that there seems to be a problem with sexual harassment in the work space. Women paint their lips red because it represents sex.
Is this not true? Men are equally responsible as women, and JP might do wisely to say that do thou
Or saying that in an equal society the physical (rather than cultural) difference will be greater.
Is that not true?
Instead of learning from him and building on these truths to find a better way people demonize him and make up stuff like "it´s rhetorical trick" or "he leaves it to the audience to connect the dots". That is just your projecting yourself onto him.
Just listen to the basic claims he makes, find out if it´s true and make up your own damn mind.
In todays emotional driven politics and culture we need someone to point out uncomfortable truths that we need to talk about. And even if he does come from a regressive point of view it is a point that needs to be represented in a democrazy. Every aspect needs to be represented, that´s what makes democracy work. It´s in the chaos of confligt new ideas are born. So even if you don´t agree personally with his perspective you need to deal with what he is saying and realize that you might have something to learn.
It´s like any other philosophy you learn about. There are some nuggets of gold in everything and it´s your job to find them and make your own ideas.
But media don´t want to talk about them , so they demonize him. If you listen to media you will hate him, but if you listen to him you will see that he does have some valid point (if you are objective)
I believe this is what divides people. Journalists and others twisting his word.

Edited November 20, 2018 by luckieluuke

[SOUL]

10 minutes ago, Outer said:

I think you should read this quote:

"Until Yellow, there is a HUGE amount of ego attachment to the value system, meaning Blue, Orange, and Green love nothing more than nitpicking and shitslinging each other."

That's all brown.

Although, what is something to be aware of is the effect of having a 'moral law' duality mindset on our well being. Does it cease self suffering and lead to well being or not? Everything else is just brown.

[Outer]

17 minutes ago, luckieluuke said:

I believe this is what divides people. Journalists and others twisting his word.

Fake news is a large part of division into Red/Blue. Objective based reporting isn't much of a thing anymore.

Just wait until Scar comes in the thread and says there's nothing objective.

Edited November 20, 2018 by Outer

[Shroomdoctor]

Why dont we just all take whatever good we can take from JP, leave the rest, and stop demonizing him. 

I am quite sure that saying JP has the agenda of oppressing women and minorities is dreadfully wrong, and anyone who would take the time to see the emotions JP is expressing while talking about individuals getting their life together could see that. Whenever you have to start saying things like "He's not saying it but he wants people to think it by interpreting what he says a certain way'' you might want to check very closely if you might be projecting. 

I also think that a lot of people here mischaracterice the radical left as green, when it is a lot more blue/red actually. 

I also think to try to interpret everything with the lense of non duality might cause problems and provides an easy way of being able to counter any argument any way you want. (On that regard I can't say much because I did not have any glimpse of non duality so I might be ignorant) 

 

 

[luckieluuke]

@Shroomdoctor Exactly

[Rilles]

I think you Americans just dont like Canadians eh. 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

jk.

[Strikr]

Jordan would loose his shit against the true lightbringer.

 

JP cast : clean your room !

He doesn't affect le leo gura*

Leo cast : there is no you and there is no thought

Jp : it isu a metaphysicul assumption blublu

Leo launch a pokeball* * sweet silence *

 

 

[Matt8800]

12 hours ago, Serotoninluv said:

@Matt8800 Yellow has transcended Orange AND Green. In addition, Yellow has advanced even higher with it’s own Yellow develop. It is much further advanced than Blue/Orange. It is like comparing a child from a small town to an adult that speaks four languages, has traveled around the world and has graduate degrees in art, mathematics and biology. Then, asking the child and adult to critique a High School system in a multiethnic area of New York City and write a proposal to increase ciricular effectiveness in a community in which less than half the population speaks fluent English. The child would propose free candy, games and long recess hours. Other children would cheer his proposal.

To Yellow, JP has the conscious level of a child. He isn’t even close to transitioning into Green. He hasn’t embodied anything about Green. He doesn’t understand Green because he has not reached that level of development. He has a very limited perspective at his low level of development.

Another analogy: it’s like asking a slave owner to write public policy for the ethical teatment of humans. This is incomprehensible to the slave owner. His level of development is too low. JP is only one conscious level higher than a slave owner (red/blue).

JP’s level of development is too low to comprehend higher conscious perspectives. His mind is incapable of understanding Green and Yellow. He is not part of a higher conscious solution. He is part of a lower conscious problem that society is trying to evolve upward from. Yellow and Green are trying to pull upward. JP is trying to pull downward. He is part of the problem, not solution. 

Hiwever, JP can help raise Red and lower Blue up to high Blue/Orange. 

@Serotoninluv Im not referring to understanding, motivation, comprehension, etc. Im referring to simple claims about how reality is now without assumptions and opinions. If we cant be honest about what is real now, a true higher consciousness solution cannot be realized.

JP's level of evolution has no bearing on whether claims are true or false. It only has bearing on interpretation and proposed solutions. JP has made some correct claims but misses the mark on proposed solutions. Green has plenty of proposed solutions but has not yet grown out of rejecting truth that conflicts with his/her bias. Solutions based in fantasy about how reality is now are less than optimal. Lets not forget that green needs to continue to evolve also.

Sounds like we just see things differently from a different perspective and will have to agree to disagree

[Pharion]

@Leo Gura I think your close by saying that universities are like that because they are stage green, but I would actually say that most of what goes on is stage blue mentality. Here me out on this. In the same way that religion is a lower consciousness interpretation of spiritual teachings, I think many of the students and teachers in western universitities have taken stage green ideas and made it into a rigid, dogmatic ideology. the people JP and I are talking about hate opposing opinions, are prejudiced and spiteful towards "oppressors" who have done nothing to harm them, and blindly have total faith in their collective ideologies and will demonize anyone who doesn't conform. Ironically, much of modern day "progressivism" is actually being dons by people who have a stage blue mentality, and create the rise of groups like antifa who will try to beat and intimadate people who have different beliefs. If it is stage green mentality, it's a very toxic and hateful form of it, but I really think it's just stage blue mentality people getting dogmatic and righteous about progressive ideals. You say racism is a stage blue marker, I can tell you that many of the "progressive" ppl in university are out and out racist and hateful to white people. 

[Pharion]

@RichardY dude. His message is for young guys to take responsibility, self actualize and not be depressed. That's it. Maybe he says stuff on the side too that u can debate over but that's essentially why he's famous and his main thing. It's not not that controversial. Without JPs lectures helping me get on track and care about my inner life I probably wouldn't even be here knowing this forum existed.

[Javfly33]

What a title, for a moment I thought J.Peterson was an enthusiast of Jerry Lorenzo´s Fear of God slim denim jeans

Edited November 20, 2018 by Javfly33

[Emerald]

14 hours ago, Outer said:

The way he thinks that the chances lessens that that time bomb is to be realized is to reject identity politics, and focus and unite on the individual. Everyone must reject identity politics, on all sides. No more culture wars. No more tribalism. You are the Individual. You are not your "group" or your "gender" or your "race". You're the divine individual that transforms the state through truthful speech.

If we look at this in terms of Spiral Dynamics, it's emblematic of Orange's drive toward individuality reacting negatively against the community focus of Green and the systemic thinking of Yellow.