What am I?

[tsuki]

It is absolutely impossible. Just impossible. How can something know itself?!

It's just like it is with language.
The moment we have a concept of 'language' and can talk about talking is the moment that nothing makes sense anymore.
If we can define what a word is, all words become meaningless. Because what is a definition other than a bunch of words?
In order to understand language you have to understand language. But how did the first word come about?
Did somebody point a finger and say 'you'? No!
Pointing a finger is also language and you cannot point a finger at pointing a finger to explain it.

The only possible conclusion to make is that understanding is a priori and it cannot be understood in terms of anything else.
Understanding is not rooted in thinking. Thinking is what is being understood.

What does this mean? Does it mean that I cannot understand understanding?
If that was true, then why does it feel like I've made progress?

[tsuki]

What does it mean that I remember something? How is it possible to be familiar with anything?

let's look at the above picture. It is obvious that the two sides of the tree are different.

This difference is apparent because they both appear in the visual field simultaneously and I assume I am an unchanging reference frame.
But what happens if I add time to the equation? How do I know that the picture did not change between consecutive observations?

Because I think that I remember what it looked like.

Memory is also rooted in comparison. I can compare what I experience to what I remember.
I can always perceive difference or sameness across time, but can I really tell what changed?
Memory is not constant after all - I remember new things and forget old, so is it really so strange to pose such a question?
So, is it that the picture is the same across consecutive observations, or does it change along with my memory?

In order to tell whether my memory did not change - I would have to compare it to something.
In order to tell the difference, I would have to have the memory of my memory.
But how do I tell if my memory changed, or that my memory of my memory did?
I would have to have memory of memory of memory and it would not help one bit because it just delegates the problem.

Edited December 11, 2018 by tsuki

[now is forever]

@tsuki

you could ask someone who was there with you at the moment of memory how they remember it - by comparing memories you know if it could be like that or different.

what do the blue lines mean by the way?

[tsuki]

1 hour ago, now is forever said:

you could ask someone who was there with you at the moment of memory how they remember it - by comparing memories you know if it could be like that or different.

And what if our memories were different? Did my memory change, or did the other person's memory change?
We could arrive at agreement if it was a peaceful situation, but what if it was in court and I was supposed to defend myself?
(These are rhetorical questions)

I'm also thinking about more fundamental things than just situations.
I'm thinking about this feeling of continuity of experience. About change. The experience of time.

1 hour ago, now is forever said:

what do the blue lines mean by the way?

https://www.wikiwand.com/en/Endless_knot
https://www.wikiwand.com/en/7₄_knot

Edited December 11, 2018 by tsuki

[tsuki]

 

[now is forever]

3 hours ago, tsuki said:

 

https://www.wikiwand.com/en/Endless_knot
https://www.wikiwand.com/en/7₄_knot

see that was a misunderstanding - sometimes in a thread there are blue lines apearing between the textfields, did you notice them?

 

[now is forever]

@tsuki sorry i didn’t take you for serious, it sounded s lot like you always sound. are you really also in a bad mood? 

do you think your memories are not real? we loose a lot of memories from the past aren‘t we? the most interesting thing is, there is no memory of hot and cold - you can’t remember the warmth of a place when it’s icecold, it doesn’t help a bit.

do you think that‘s sad - i mean it also helps to forget all the not so nice stuff. (and of course memory is different as is the now) so you are the only person in the amazing position to live exactly your life - no one else except you 

and hey how interesting it is when you suddenly remember stuff you thought you had already forgotten - i mean sometimes if the memory is not too bad.

Edited December 11, 2018 by now is forever

[tsuki]

This may have been the most intensive three weeks in the history of my professional career, psychologically speaking.

The deadline for the tool that we are making is absurd.
I am given a task that nobody understands and is critical to this project.
Last time I did something similar I was given twice as much time.
This task requires time consuming computations.
The computations may fail without any useful errors that point to how to fix the issue.

So, basically - everybody is losing their shit and I have to be calm and walk aimlessly because my computer is doing calculations for a few hours.
For the past two weeks I've been meditating, contemplating and self-inquiring during work to keep myself occupied.
This week my mind decided that it is a perfect opportunity to emotionally shit-test my mindfulness during this havoc.
I seem to have passed the test and the work is going better than I anticipated (for now).

I feel like a different person altogether after all of this. Like a titan, or something.

[now is forever]

@tsuki you are this example like sage student! i don’t know who‘s life you saved in your last life but certainly you did! (and for this life, in respect of saving life’s you already have some good karma points,too). so of course you’ll manage well - the smarter one gives in but only in respect to reason ?

good luck with the project!

[tsuki]

12 hours ago, now is forever said:

@tsuki you are this example like sage student! i don’t know who‘s life you saved in your last life but certainly you did! (and for this life, in respect of saving life’s you already have some good karma points,too). so of course you’ll manage well - the smarter one gives in but only in respect to reason ?

good luck with the project!

@now is forever I'm not used to people being this nice to me so I don't know what to say other than: thank you.

[tsuki]

Hmm, still dealing with ego backlash. Dealing is not the right word. Seeing?
Yesterday was very difficult. The mind kept alternating between silencing itself and being afraid of going back to work.
Today is much better because my programs seem to have finished without problems, but I still feel bored and worthless.
I suddenly want to liberate myself from work, I want to start business and become filthy rich.

How does this thing even work? The mind says that the mind is deluded.
How do I whip the monkey into submission? Or does the monkey whip itself and gets angrier and angrier?
I really don't want to relapse back into my addictions to soothe it, but I don't have any new habits to replace them.
The only thing left for me to do is just meditate and self-inquire, but doesn't it make it actually worse?

Hmm... did I just get whipped into submission by the monkey?
Ohh, you little rascal. You almost had me! Go ahead. Make me suffer. I can take it.

Edited December 17, 2018 by tsuki

[tsuki]

Wisdom is expressed through spontaneous actions that are appropriate.

Edited December 18, 2018 by tsuki

[Zigzag Idiot]

22 hours ago, tsuki said:

Wisdom is expressed through spontaneous actions that are appropriate.

"Conscience is the inner memory for those actions necessary to bring any given situation back in tune with Unity. Although this definition of Conscience is correct, it stays incomplete, because Conscience cannot be reasoned but must come into Being."

From Higher Being Bodies, Ocke de Boer 

[tsuki]

11 hours ago, Zigzag Idiot said:

"Conscience is the inner memory for those actions necessary to bring any given situation back in tune with Unity. Although this definition of Conscience is correct, it stays incomplete, because Conscience cannot be reasoned but must come into Being."

From Higher Being Bodies, Ocke de Boer 

I'm not familiar with Gurdjieff's mysticism but I strangely resonate with this passage.
Losing sight of wisdom (conscience?) is not only about forgetting, but even forgetting that I forgot it.
Strangely enough - it always comes back, although at its own pace.

Do you find that the trust in what happens 'behind our back' is important?
I mean - that, which happens without self-remembering.

[Zigzag Idiot]

Good and very relevant question!

A. H. Almaas's Diamond Approach was born partly out of his very intense early Gurdjieff group work. He describes 'basic trust' as a crucial element in one's realization of Being. From his online Glossary I picked out one of his book excerpts on basic trust and pasted below. 

The Innate Sense that Life is Fundamentally Benevolent 

The presence of basic trust indicates that you have the innate sense that life is fundamentally benevolent, and that benevolence exists independent of you and your actions. You will have this sense to the extent that your grounding in the universe has not been disturbed. The relative presence or absence of basic trust is a belly quality, something one’s whole being is either grounded in or not. The disturbance of basic trust is a significant factor in ego development because the perspective of ego is diametrically opposed to the sense of basic trust. The ego’s perspective arises out of a lack of this trust. It is based on distrust, on paranoia, on fear, on the conviction that you're not going to be adequately taken care of and that the universe is not there to hold and take care of you in the ways that you need. This conviction causes you to believe that you have to engage in all kinds of manipulations and games to get your needs met and to make things work out. 

Facets of Unity, pg. 25

From Almaas's Glossary page of his book excerpts about Basic Trust

https://www.diamondapproach.org/glossary/refinery_phrases/basic-trust

 

[now is forever]

@tsuki how is it we seem to have similar chacra issues so often??? if you wouldn’t have talked about trust i wouldn’t have known what the belly chacra means.

@Zigzag Idiot thank you - actually, also had a look in your journal and bought the idiot safe book - but  wondered why it’s idiocy rather than foolishness... maybe you are more the zig zag fool. a clever bunny or something.

Edited December 19, 2018 by now is forever

[Zigzag Idiot]

A few centuries ago, the Greek word idiotes referred to a simple or private man and derived from the word idios which means to be "of one's own" or particular or special.

"To be declared an Idiot is a compliment of the highest degree - it means that one is not sharing the common illusions which sedate us all but rather has found his or her private, unique individuality." - From Bruno Martin.

The word fool has also been used interchangeably by a few attempting this path since Gurdjieffs death.

link to fragments about Science of Idiotism and a little about Gurdjieff

https://selfdefinition.org/gurdjieff/quotes/science-of-idiotism.htm

Will Mesa's contribution to this Idiocy,,,,

https://willmesa.wordpress.com/2015/04/18/on-idiocy-and-idiots/

 

Edited December 20, 2018 by Zigzag Idiot

[tsuki]

Here's a great talk from Alan Watts that shows the difference between the two terms:

@now is forever @Zigzag Idiot
In short, a fool is a role incorporated by society that serves to remind it that it is a form of play.
Not a play in a childish manner, but in a sort of theatrical way. Like Hamlet.
It is reminiscent of what a Bothisattva is - a person that gives away that this whole thing is a sham, but in a respectful manner.
He/she does it in such a way that does not make people resent themselves for participating.

Edited December 20, 2018 by tsuki

[now is forever]

@tsuki yes - i never saw it negativeley actually if you look at the fool on a tarot card he looks like someone without concerns, happyly walking with the eyes in the sky even though walking at the brink of a cliff. (i always thought s/he‘s well aware of the cliff)

but i thought maybe that’s what gurdjieff was also talking about that’s why i mentioned it. i‘m not sure, though. just thought a fool knows - but that would mean i‘m outing me to think of myself as not an idiot.... preposterous.

Edited December 20, 2018 by now is forever

[Zigzag Idiot]

@tsuki Thanks!

I,m listening to and enjoying the Alan Watts YouTube.