'Mental states are physiological reactions' - how do I counter this argument?

[Manjushri]

My friend and I are trying to logically prove materialism absurd. We're stuck at this point here. 

[Jack River]

‘Mental states are physiological reactions' - how do I counter this argument? Well..

This..”how do I counter this argument?” Is psychological reaction itself. A movement of thought that refuses to understand/remain in relationship with with the question itself. 

In this attitude logic, reason, rational investigation has already been corrupted. 

Edited November 13, 2018 by Jack River

[Forestluv]

15 minutes ago, Gligorije said:

My friend and I are trying to logically prove materialism absurd. We're stuck at this point here. 

At the core of materialism is assumptions. Perhaps challenge that assumption.

Flip the script and ask a materialist: if mental states were not physiological reactions, what would that look like? 

Or. . . how could we create an immaterial world and fake people out to think it is material?

[wavydude]

If you going for logical argument first define what are mental state and psychological reactions.

[Hellspeed]

Don't bother. Logic alone cannot grasp the subconscious, and I will say this: NEVER! 

[Nahm]

@Gligorije You are made of atoms. Atom’s are empty space. You guys are empty space. Google it with your “phone”.

[Consilience]

Understand the hard problem of consciousness, which is a philosophical topic. Next, become directly conscious of the fact that reality has and always necessarily will be perceived as contents of consciousness. Any ideas or thoughts about objects or physicality is itself more contents within consciousness 

[SOUL]

Logic belongs to materialism and materialism belongs to logic, they are dependent upon each other to exist and trying to separate them is like trying to separate food from it's taste. So using logic to prove materialism is absurd is like trying to use the taste of the food to prove it has no flavor.

Liberation is freedom from suffering which does not depend on logic, materialism or proving anything to be what it is. In fact liberation is freedom from trying to prove anything, it's not logic or materialism or spirituality or absurdity, it is being at peace regardless of these swirling around us in life.

So trying to prove something likely will contribute to suffering, not free one from it.

[wren]

You could try Gödel's incompleteness theorem where he logically proved that logic cannot prove everything. 

[Emanyalpsid]

2 hours ago, Gligorije said:

My friend and I are trying to logically prove materialism absurd. We're stuck at this point here. 

By using logic you are only creating a mental construct, trying to confirm your beliefs.

Instead; whack each other on the head with a baseball bat. If your mental state is not influenced by this... you have your answer.

If you are scared to do this.. you have your answer.

Edited November 13, 2018 by Emanyalpsid

[Manjushri]

thank you for all your dear answers @Jack River Please elaborate.

@wavydude We already have,and we got to this point. You can't solve the mind/body problem in materialism, so what a materialist does is reduce the mind to matter.

@Hellspeed Why do you think so? I think it's important to be able to use logic for ontology too, the basic one at least.@Nahm

Who says that? Materialists aren't necessarily atomists,no???

@Consilience Yeah,we figured this one out  still, consciousness is then just an umbrella term for ons,ontos,being,God,whatever. we're talking about the contents in it - they can all actually be matter,why not?

.@wren checking it    out! thank you

@Emanyalpsid  hahahahaha, you sound like a Zen master  please elaborate, you're too hermetic. We're not actually taking any standpoints, just trying to practice our rhetoric and logic, which I consider important. My beliefs aren't that emotionally tangled anymore. I can change them accordingly.

 

I have a relevant read everybody! https://strangenotions.com/the-single-best-argument-against-philosophical-materialism/ Please tell me what you think! It's interesting. 

 

Edited November 13, 2018 by Gligorije

[electroBeam]

2 hours ago, Gligorije said:

My friend and I are trying to logically prove materialism absurd. We're stuck at this point here. 

people who say this statement are actually correct. Mental states ARE physiological reactions.

but what are physiological reactions? what is physiology?

Its atoms bouncing around in a set order.

What are atoms? Spherical balls

What are Spherical balls?

A mental construct as far as I'm concerned. (well whatever you believe they are, you cannot say they are material, because they are underneathe material/built ontop of material)

What is a mental construct?

A phenomena (we don't know of what, we can't say its a materialistic phenomena because this phenomena is underneathe materialism)

Ahhhhh atoms are undefinable phenomena (or if you keep questioning, they are actually illusions).

 

So materialism isn't WRONG (unlike what Leo and others here try to make out) its just a self consistent layer ontop of the truth. Its like a high level programming language. Python/java/c# etc are not wrong, they are just built on top of assembly lang. 

Edited November 13, 2018 by electroBeam

[Jack River]

2 hours ago, Jack River said:

This..”how do I counter this argument?”

The self/ego tends to defend its own bias first and foremost. We in most cases are not interested in truth but what makes the psychological me secure psychologically. The self looks for answers to defend its own predisposition by engaging in argument as opposed to simply learning about the problem and being able to suspend our own personal bias for the sake of investigation. So instead of looking to understand a problem together first and foremost, we instead fight about who’s answer/opinion/idea fits our own preconceived conclusions. 

all of this type of back and forth argument is a type of psychological reaction itself. A manifestation of being trapped in a materialist mindset. To cling to our own bias and not being able to suspend such, there is no possiblity to actually be logical, reasonable. It’s type of disease. A product of fragmentation. 

I think we need to be able to understand our own limits, such as psychological becoming, before going into whether or not a material process such as thought can go beyond itself. 

Edited November 13, 2018 by Jack River

[Nahm]

@Gligorije It is amazing really that the population is generally materialist, and anyone could just google it and find out in a couple minutes. 

[Emanyalpsid]

You are trying to link something out of the physical world to the mental world.

You can think up any argument you want but it will be nothing more then theory. Without testing it in practice it is just your believe. So you can discuss anyhting you want, but is useless, outside of training your debate skills. if you dont test it, cause you will only come up with theory.

If you are scared for a physiological reaction (when the baseball bat hits your head), your mental state is influenced by a physiological reaction.

 

[Haumea2018]

Just point out that matter is almost entirely emptiness and isn't real in any but conceptual sense.

Atoms aren't these hard balls with small orbiting particles.  That's a model, not reality.

But really, I wouldn't engage in arguments like this at all.  

Edited November 13, 2018 by Haumea2018

[Manjushri]

@Jack River For argumentation purpose, we took the opposing sides. My friend's task is to confirm materialism (because his emotional beliefs are more idealism-sided) and my task is to confute it. I'm aware of the underlying biases. 

And the best two examinations of a claim ARE:

Why is it such? 

Why would it not be such? (we took the second one because the first one is self-explanatory within materialism) 

Edited November 13, 2018 by Gligorije

[Manjushri]

@Jack River @electroBeam

@electroBeam This is what we're getting towards,i guess. Leo never says it's wrong? He says rationality is wrong, but only rants against materialism. 

Contents of consciousness 

[Manjushri]

@electroBeam Mental states are physiological reactions? why so??? 

[Manjushri]

@Nahm 99.9999999999996% empty space. whaaaaaaaaaat

what are the implications??????