Posted August 21, 2019 (edited) @Leo Gura You know it's a game of good cop bad cop, and you're playing the bad cop. You're actually asking people to destroy their understanding of love, love = feeling good. You want them to throw away their hope of love, belonging and inclusion as a worthless desire and switch out the word love for Truth Love, which seems like something akin to the Old Testament God of wrath and fury. Truth Love is not an understanding, it's a feeling that can only be felt fully if one lets go of their desire for feeling good over feeling bad. Huh. Nevermind. I get it now. Edited August 21, 2019 by mandyjw My Youtube Channel- Light on Earth “We dance round in a ring and suppose, but the Secret sits in the middle and knows.”― Robert Frost Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Posted August 21, 2019 43 minutes ago, Leo Gura said: Because this is not as slight a difference as you think, and because this problem, while small now, will only grow larger and larger with my newer teachings until it comes to a head. @Leo Gura Exiling people because they contradict your highest teaching is criminal, Leo. If your teaching was truly the highest, it would include and transcend the teachings that are inferior. Even if @winterknight's teaching were inferior (and I am deliberately not taking a stance on this matter), then they are still vastly superior to what everyday people think. If what you say is true and you have reached some of the deepest layers of reality, then isn't it to be expected that average viewer wouldn't be able to relate to what you say? By explaining how your teaching includes and transcends inferior ones, you are actually teaching the highest truth without getting this territorial about it. Of course, it would be ideal if people that use your platform didn't shit on the plate they are eating from, but the responsibility to resolve these conflicts peacefully is on you. Even if someone is "deluded" and presents an inferior view, at the very least he does so to invalidate it, if the opportunity presents itself, and grow. While this responsibility may be too burdensome when it comes to random people or trolls, I think that you should treat advanced seekers differently. Right now, by resolving conflicts through exile, you are basically saying that all teachings that are incompatible with yours are worthless. As you supposedly possess the highest vantage point of us, it is your responsibility to build this bridge. Otherwise, you are just talking to yourself. Bearing with the conditioned in gentleness, fording the river with resolution, not neglecting what is distant, not regarding one's companions; thus one may manage to walk in the middle. H11L2 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Posted August 21, 2019 11 minutes ago, Leo Gura said: Compared to hardcore spiritual practice as in Zen, what you guys get here is the light treatment. Your egos are SO comfortable and safe lurking around this forum. In a classroom there are some students who one disapproving glance from teacher will feel like a knife to the heart. Then, there are others who will only sneer at getting 2 weeks of detention. My Youtube Channel- Light on Earth “We dance round in a ring and suppose, but the Secret sits in the middle and knows.”― Robert Frost Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Posted August 21, 2019 @tsuki If someone declares, "I am enlightened" or "I am no longer seeking" what good could they possibly get from anyone after that? If they were here to learn then out of love you'd let them stay. No one can teach without also learning. It's impossible. It's the universal joke. If someone here is to teach and only teach and is not open to learning then, what's their motive really? My Youtube Channel- Light on Earth “We dance round in a ring and suppose, but the Secret sits in the middle and knows.”― Robert Frost Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Posted August 21, 2019 (edited) 16 minutes ago, mandyjw said: If someone declares, "I am enlightened" or "I am no longer seeking" what good could they possibly get from anyone after that? If they were here to learn then out of love you'd let them stay. No. Seeing the truth is not the end of the person's life, nor does it end the person's needs. By teaching the truth you do not refine your access to it, but find new ways of sharing/expressing it. Your proclivity to seek the emotion called love is an expression your ego. It has very little to do with love in the non-dual sense. Don't treat this statement as an affront, we need more egos like that. Edited August 21, 2019 by tsuki Bearing with the conditioned in gentleness, fording the river with resolution, not neglecting what is distant, not regarding one's companions; thus one may manage to walk in the middle. H11L2 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Posted August 21, 2019 I think what most ppl don't get is, during an awakening, for example, you literally become love. This is obvious to you when this happens. That's why they say that love is not an emotion. When you become love, teaching from here is different than teaching from only understanding love as an emotion. And, there's no distance between love and truth, although love came out of truth. The distance is only an illusion to the ego. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Posted August 21, 2019 1 hour ago, mandyjw said: @Leo Gura You know it's a game of good cop bad cop, and you're playing the bad cop. You're actually asking people to destroy their understanding of love, love = feeling good. You want them to throw away their hope of love, belonging and inclusion as a worthless desire and switch out the word love for Truth Love, which seems like something akin to the Old Testament God of wrath and fury. Again, that's some interpretation you're creating. I said no such thing. Feeling good is not the existential Love I'm pointing to. 1 hour ago, tsuki said: @Leo Gura Exiling people because they contradict your highest teaching is criminal, Leo. That is your relative judgment. Quote If your teaching was truly the highest, it would include and transcend the teachings that are inferior. Even if @winterknight's teaching were inferior (and I am deliberately not taking a stance on this matter), then they are still vastly superior to what everyday people think. If what you say is true and you have reached some of the deepest layers of reality, then isn't it to be expected that average viewer wouldn't be able to relate to what you say? By explaining how your teaching includes and transcends inferior ones, you are actually teaching the highest truth without getting this territorial about it. What you're not yet understanding is that conflict is necessary and inevitable, even within spirituality. You cannot have a spiritual school without boundaries and conflict. This has never happened in human history and it never will because the relative domain is necessarily dualistic and exclusionary. There cannot be a fully inclusive teaching because it would become totally corrupt and ineffective. Effectiveness itself is a bias which must be enforced through exclusion. This problem goes away beyond personal ego or some local dispute between two teachers. This is an existential problem which can only be appreciated after deep contemplation of it. Ask yourself what conflict is and why necessarily occurs. While you're at it, ask yourself what boundaries are and why social organizations must have them. Quote Right now, by resolving conflicts through exile, you are basically saying that all teachings that are incompatible with yours are worthless. You're saying that. Not me. I have never had a problem with the teaching of self-inquiry. I have taught it myself. I have books about it on my book list. You are God. You are Truth. You are Love. You are Infinity. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Posted August 21, 2019 7 hours ago, Leo Gura said: Love is simply what is. If you are a serious student of spiritual texts and teachings, you know that the best of them talk about love. It has nothing to do with fireworks or psychedelics. Psychedelics simply show you your deepest nature -- if you have the courage to look at yourself in your rawest form. The reason some of guys have a hard time buying this whole love business it because you're still thinking of reality from the materialist paradigm. This paradigm can extremely subtle, such that even people who have an awakening or two -- such as Sam Harris -- still have not transcended it. According to materialism, the universe must be neutral, impersonal, and devoid of any sentimentality. This is a hyper-logical, hyper-masculine, reductionistic way of understanding reality. And it is untrue. Consciousness is Love. It is not dumb matter or energy or even "simply what is". What is, is LOVE! And why it is, is LOVE! Be careful not to underestimate God's goodness. That is the key mistake here. God is not neutral as you might assume. Maybe using the word 'aliveness' would be more helpful for understanding for some, because so many people still equate 'love' with human materialistic emotion and can't grasp what it really means existentially? Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Posted August 21, 2019 6 minutes ago, Natasha said: Maybe using the word 'aliveness' would be more helpful for understanding for some, because so many people still equate 'love' with human materialistic emotion and can't grasp what it really means existentially? Aliveness it not what I mean though. Love is not the same as aliveness. Love is a very distinct realization. Yes, of course people equate love with human emotion, in the same way that they equate perception with a human creature. The ego precisely co-opts such terms, corrupting them to partial, limited, dualistic notions. It is impossible to comprehend Infinite Love from the ego's POV. From the ego's POV, Infinite Love is death. It cannot be allowed at any cost. It must be denied, denied, denied. The devil will never admit that the universe is made of pure Love. You are God. You are Truth. You are Love. You are Infinity. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Posted August 21, 2019 (edited) @tsuki "inferior" understanding is only relative and not linearily "less" than the superior one. Spiritual advance people can easily forget to do integration between their agenda and the 'inferior' agenda. People who are much less spiritual can still teach the advance people things, like for example, balance between spirituality and other behaviours that they most likely forgot during their spiritual path - like socializing more, do more sports, re-develope participation in regular society. Integration is very important! I am claiming that this kind of integration is - Turquoise. Edited August 21, 2019 by Nivsch 🌻 Thinking independently about the spiral stages themselves is important for going through them in an organic, efficient way. If you stick to an external idea about how a stage should be you lose touch with its real self customized process trying to happen inside you. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Posted August 21, 2019 Possibly u were both pointing same realization in some way or another but got hung up on semantics and difference in way teaching, I mean who knows Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Posted August 21, 2019 1 minute ago, Leo Gura said: That is your relative judgment. And so what? That fact does not invalidate it. 8 minutes ago, Leo Gura said: What you're not yet understanding that conflict is necessary and inevitable, even within spirituality. Your response tells me that you misunderstood what I wrote. I was not against conflict! I said why is it in the best interest of everybody that we say what we consider to be true and that this is going to create conflict. By exiling people that fundamentally disagree with you, you are trying to prevent conflict from resolving in a fruitful manner. You just kicked off winterknight and alienated his, let's say - fans. If you had a sincere conversation with him instead, you would have an opportunity to educate a lot of people and possibly help him too. If your teaching is truly higher than winterknight's, then these people are part way to understanding what you're trying to convey. With this kind of behavior, you are doing disservice to yourself. 23 minutes ago, Leo Gura said: You cannot have a spiritual school without conflict. This have happened in human history and it never will because the relative domain is necessarily dualistic and exclusionary. That is why there are hierarchies in spiritual schools and not all hierarchies are corrupt. The above serves those that are below and those below obey those that are above. They do so because it serves them. God does not rule with power, Leo. Bearing with the conditioned in gentleness, fording the river with resolution, not neglecting what is distant, not regarding one's companions; thus one may manage to walk in the middle. H11L2 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Posted August 21, 2019 (edited) 6 minutes ago, tsuki said: God does not rule with power. No. Just no. Edited August 21, 2019 by Truth Addict Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Posted August 21, 2019 20 minutes ago, Nivsch said: "inferior" understanding is only relative and not linearily "less" than the superior one. That is simply not true. If that was the case, then it wouldn't be possible to guide people towards the truth. No thought-story about the truth is it, but these stories can be of lesser or higher quality simply by the fact that they lay down less obstacles. You can be so direct about the truth that you would trigger physiological effects such as nausea and panic attacks. Bearing with the conditioned in gentleness, fording the river with resolution, not neglecting what is distant, not regarding one's companions; thus one may manage to walk in the middle. H11L2 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Posted August 21, 2019 7 minutes ago, Truth Addict said: No. Just no. Hmmm? Bearing with the conditioned in gentleness, fording the river with resolution, not neglecting what is distant, not regarding one's companions; thus one may manage to walk in the middle. H11L2 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Posted August 21, 2019 (edited) 7 minutes ago, tsuki said: That is simply not true. If that was the case, then it wouldn't be possible to guide people towards the truth. No thought-story about the truth is it, but these stories can be of lesser or higher quality simply by the fact that they lay down less obstacles. You can be so direct about the truth that you would trigger physiological effects such as nausea and panic attacks. How it contradicts what I wrote? Obviousely advance people will show the path to the truth to the less advanced ones. But, the advanced people can very easily forget things that the less advanced people do more and there is a good deal of truth also in their path. If you are really spiritually advanced - you will have to do integration between the two! Attaching too much to spiriualy path and neglecting others asspects of life is by itself a good resource for suffering. and it can so easily be forgotten. Edited August 21, 2019 by Nivsch 🌻 Thinking independently about the spiral stages themselves is important for going through them in an organic, efficient way. If you stick to an external idea about how a stage should be you lose touch with its real self customized process trying to happen inside you. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Posted August 21, 2019 1 hour ago, tsuki said: No. Seeing the truth is not the end of the person's life, nor does it end the person's needs. By teaching the truth you do not refine your access to it, but find new ways of sharing/expressing it. Your proclivity to seek the emotion called love is an expression your ego. It has very little to do with love in the non-dual sense. Don't treat this statement as an affront, we need more egos like that. Love is blind to ego, it includes ego to such an extent that it no longer exists on its own. My Youtube Channel- Light on Earth “We dance round in a ring and suppose, but the Secret sits in the middle and knows.”― Robert Frost Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Posted August 21, 2019 Just now, Nivsch said: How it contradicts what I wrote? Obviousely advance people will show the path to the truth to the less advanced ones. If it doesn't then I don't understand what we are discussing. I agree with the rest of your post. Bearing with the conditioned in gentleness, fording the river with resolution, not neglecting what is distant, not regarding one's companions; thus one may manage to walk in the middle. H11L2 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Posted August 21, 2019 3 hours ago, Enlightenment said: @Leo Gura Do you know anybody that has "awakened to love" and now is walking around all loving all the time? I just don't think such people exist. The closest are probably monks who put a lot of emphases on loving-kindness meditation in their spiritual training. On 8/16/2019 at 9:27 PM, winterknight said: @Enlightenment the thing people miss is that Pure Being IS Love itself. it is the very fabric of reality. Wisdom. Truth. Love. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
