I am enlightened. Sincere seekers: ask me anything

[Skanzi]

I don't understand what enlightenment is. How can I search for something if I don't know what it is that I am searching for? I have had peak experiences, or deep insights accompanied with a sense of relief through my insight, but I don't feel like I've come to know what enlightenment or an "enlightenment experience" is. I can label any experiences or insights I have as such, but how do I know that I am simply not befooling myself?

Is enlightenment an experience or an attitude? Is it a feeling of whatever kind —peace, joy, bliss— or more an attitude TOWARDS what you are experiencing. In fact, how do draw the boundary line between a feeling and attitude? We can speak of a "peaceful attitude", but that translates in the end in an experience of peace of the feeling of peace. Peak experiences, and thus feelings, I can only intellectually understand as something tied to duality, so it can not be the real thing, I would assume. But this is merely an assumption so this could be wrong.

If an attitude would translate into a feeling, as I can define no clear boundary lines, then what else could I be searching for in enlightenment but to feel good? I thought for some time that I was searching for an attitude, but I feel like that makes no sense now.

I can not understand my search for enlightenment to be anything other than to feel good, in some way or another. Is this what I'm supposed to search for, and is this what I'm supposed to find? If it were to be some sort of feeling, is that which I would find as a feeling something that is beyond dualities? Something that does not return to its opposite? Then how would I have known if I have found it? And if it were not to be some sort of feeling, then what is it truly worth?

Is enlightenment something that I can conceptualize even as the vaguest pointer in the almost complete dark? Or is it simply a mystery until it hits you? Are all my attempts to understand or conceptualize it with my mind to complete, utter lack of avail?

In fact, does enlightenment even exist? Am I made to believe in a lie? Why should I even believe that it exists? Just because spiritual teachers tell me so? Just because spiritual seekers agree that it exists? I have no true evidence, so why should I believe? And even more fundamental than that: WHAT am I supposed to believe, or disbelief, or neither believe or disbelief?

The only thing I can imagine myself doing is to search something for which would make me feel good. I will try. Not necessarily by conscious choice but I know I will anyway.

Because if it were not a feeling I was looking for, then what the hell am I supposed to be searching for? Or what am I supposed to find? What will anything other than a good feeling be worth?

 

Edited March 11, 2019 by Skanzi

[EmptinessDncing]

On 3/11/2019 at 1:29 AM, winterknight said:

These statements are all true so far as they go, but they are all holding on to the diving board. What would happen if you let yourself fall into the water?

THE QUESTION SHOULD BE WHY NOT SINK DEEPER ONTO THE OCEAN?  WHY HANG AROUND NEAR THE SURFACE?  LIFE IS DYSFUNCTIONAL.  5D IS VERY AWKWARD WHEN RUNNING A FAMILY AND CAREER.  AT THIS CURRENT TIME WHERE I'M HANGING OUT IS GREAT.  LIFE FLOWS.  5D CREATES PROBLEMS.  SEVERE MEMORY ISSUES, APATHY, UNORGANISATION, INCONSIDERATENESS.  HERE IS DIVINE, AND FUNCTIONAL IN MY CURRENT REALITY, PERFECT.  BEYOND MIND COULD BE CONSIDERED ESCAPISM COULD IT NOT?

There is a mode of life which is subtler and which totally evades the mind. YES, THE CONVENTIONAL MIND IS RELATIVELY PATHETIC COMPARED TO A STATE OF INSTANT KNOWING.  IF ONLY THE INSTANT KNOWING GOT MY KIDS TO BIRTHDAY PARTIES AND STUDY AND MARKETING DONE. ONE TEACHER TOLD ME THE TRANSITION JUST HAPPENS NATURALLY OVER TIME AFTER AWAKENING, TOO.

Their minds may appear to be depressed, but the "enlightened person" does not identify with that appearance.

I DON'T KNOW TO BE HONEST, I'VE NEVER BEEN DEPRESSED.  PRESUMABLY THERE IS SIMPLY A CHEMICAL REASON AND IT IS SEEN JUST IN THE BODY LIKE EVERY OTHER EMOTION. SO DEPRESSION, BUT NOT SUFFERING.

If there is an ego, which there really isn't, then it is kept 'in check' by the automatic operation of knowledge, which fixes the mind irretrievably on its source. Then it's like a ball dropped and vibrating less and less over time, less and less and less. And in truth it cannot be said to be vibrating at all. 

HMM, SLIPPERY SLOPE IMO.  ENLIGHTENED PERSON STARTS CULT.  NOT COOL FROM A DUALISTIC PERSPECTIVE, FROM NON-DUAL THERE IS NOTHING.  NO RULES, NOTHING MATTERS, NO REASON TO CARE WHO ANYONE FUCKS.  THERE ARE NO PEOPLE.  ARE YOU ANY DIFFERENT?  WHAT'S TO STOP YOU DOING IT?  AND DON'T GO ON ABOUT THE NON-DUAL OBVIOUS.  HOW DO YOU KNOW YOU CAN MANAGE ON YOUR OWN?  YOU CAN'T HONESTLY SAY YOU DO KNOW.  PERSONALLY I'D TRUST SOMEONE MORE THAT WASN'T ENLIGHTENED BECAUSE AT LEAST THEY STILL THINK MORALS ARE REAL.  WHY DO I CARE?  I'M JUST PASSIONATE ABOUT WAKING PEOPLE UP, NOT FUCKING THEM UP.

Look, I don't mean to be too harsh on your teachings, you seem fairly clear.  I've obviously got a thing going on and this is what it is...   I'm not content with the regular way of teaching, nor checks and balances on spiritual teachers.  There must be a better way. that's what I'm digging for.

[Victor Mgazi]

6 hours ago, winterknight said:

Yes indeed

I'm talking about enlightenment, the truth of who you really are -- follow these links if you want to learn more.

Yes I have followed the links but they don't really reveal much about you, which is what I'm interested in: learning more about you. That's if you don't mind. 

I have heard and learned a lot about enlightenment , but not much on it's effect on the average person. I've heard about the eternal state of bliss or the end of suffering, merging with the very fabric of reality, becoming infinite, awakening from our 'dream state' and on and... 

But then at this moment in time I don't feel like I want to stop any suffering or confusion or experiencing what people tend to refer to as ego death and all of that. I'm quite satisfied with the way things are right now. But I am interested in the effects, in terms of how you go about your daily life and see the world.

Which brings me to this second question:

What are your ingredients of identifying that you'd consider true? You say "Truth cannot be an object of awareness.", what 'tool/tools' did you use to draw this conclusion. 

 

[EmptinessDncing]

On 3/11/2019 at 1:29 AM, winterknight said:

19 hours ago, AlwaysBeNice said:

Slander and then making such a claim, right, who told you that?

I am not saying it's impossible, but the wise can surrender themselves beyond it, or may even appreciate it if it can help serve others in an empathic connection.

@AlwaysBeNice  I have many enlightened peers (physical ones, not online) Not just newbs, but old hats.  One told me he gets depressed, so I asked the others.  Same.  Depression, not suffering.  Yes, I like to be the cat amongst the pigeons.  Gets people thinking.  Don't write me off as unenlightened, just because you think I'm a <insert judgment here>, question how it's possible.  I'm just shallow and only 2 years in is all.  You don't master it over night.  Or stop being a dickhead.

And @winterknight doesn't mind a bit of slander.  There's no-one home that cares.  I don't care,I can't imagine he does. The slander isn't intended anyway, more blatant interrogation.  It's how I build trust.  If he's a good teacher he'd know that.

[winterknight]

17 hours ago, Skanzi said:

I don't understand what enlightenment is. How can I search for something if I don't know what it is that I am searching for? I have had peak experiences, or deep insights accompanied with a sense of relief through my insight, but I don't feel like I've come to know what enlightenment or an "enlightenment experience" is. I can label any experiences or insights I have as such, but how do I know that I am simply not befooling myself?

The way you get "the big picture" for seeking is to educate yourself. Follow these links and read my book. Read the scriptures. Think about them. Ask questions of someone who is knowledgeable.

Meanwhile, apply that knowledge through self-inquiry. That is the only way you will understand what you are seeking. 

You are right that enlightenment is not an experience. It cannot be expressed what it is, except that it is the end of the fiction that you are an individual person. How will you know when you have it? It will be something you "know" beyond a doubt. It will be marked by inner clarity and peace and freedom.

Edited March 12, 2019 by winterknight

[SoonHei]

@winterknight

there are the ying and yang to enlightenment...

mostly, the ying side is talked about and seen and popular... But of course, there must also be and thus is the  Yang.

 

Now what I mean with these is:

I talk about ying as "good" 

And I talk about yang as "bad/evil" 

They are in quotes because ultimately there is no such thing and I get that.

 

So with that said, my question is, enlightenment can also mean a person who was a psyopath killer prior to Awakening and he then has an awakening and it's permanent... then can his behavior can remain as it was if not infinitely worsen yet he would still be the buddah?

This would be the God POV of Hell side of enlightenment and it's ever worsening "experience" ?

 

Vs the good side.of enlightenment mooji/sadhguru etc that can be said to be God's POV of the good/heaven side of enlightenment?

 

(Again the hell/heaven are distinctions) but i am using them in the context of what occurs/unfolds from the pov of a human in this dream of life.

[winterknight]

9 hours ago, EmptinessDncing said:

THE QUESTION SHOULD BE WHY NOT SINK DEEPER ONTO THE OCEAN?  WHY HANG AROUND NEAR THE SURFACE?  LIFE IS DYSFUNCTIONAL.  5D IS VERY AWKWARD WHEN RUNNING A FAMILY AND CAREER.  AT THIS CURRENT TIME WHERE I'M HANGING OUT IS GREAT.  LIFE FLOWS.  5D CREATES PROBLEMS.  SEVERE MEMORY ISSUES, APATHY, UNORGANISATION, INCONSIDERATENESS.  HERE IS DIVINE, AND FUNCTIONAL IN MY CURRENT REALITY, PERFECT.  BEYOND MIND COULD BE CONSIDERED ESCAPISM COULD IT NOT?

The "beyond mind" that is a choice ("to be escapist or not") is not the real beyond mind. 

The real beyond mind is not an action and it is not a choice -- it is simply a fact. It is because you view it as a choice between some kind of escapist mind-state and something else, that's why it seems to result in memory loss, etc.

It is because at some level you are worried about the results of surrender ("what will happen to my career and family?") that surrender is not complete and what you have is pseudo-surrender. Pseudo-surrender appears to cause these problems. Of course, you cannot, as a voluntary act of will, fully surrender. It happens by itself as an act of grace. Pseudo surrender and/or self-inquiry leads to true surrender in time.

While there is still the idea of the egoic notion of choice and of suffering various consequences from wrong choice, there is not the true beyond-mind. 

9 hours ago, EmptinessDncing said:

HMM, SLIPPERY SLOPE IMO.  ENLIGHTENED PERSON STARTS CULT.  NOT COOL FROM A DUALISTIC PERSPECTIVE, FROM NON-DUAL THERE IS NOTHING.  NO RULES, NOTHING MATTERS, NO REASON TO CARE WHO ANYONE FUCKS.  THERE ARE NO PEOPLE.  ARE YOU ANY DIFFERENT?  WHAT'S TO STOP YOU DOING IT?  AND DON'T GO ON ABOUT THE NON-DUAL OBVIOUS.  HOW DO YOU KNOW YOU CAN MANAGE ON YOUR OWN?  YOU CAN'T HONESTLY SAY YOU DO KNOW.  PERSONALLY I'D TRUST SOMEONE MORE THAT WASN'T ENLIGHTENED BECAUSE AT LEAST THEY STILL THINK MORALS ARE REAL.  WHY DO I CARE?  I'M JUST PASSIONATE ABOUT WAKING PEOPLE UP, NOT FUCKING THEM UP.

Who says that rules don't matter? "Rules don't matter" is also a rule. Different enlightened people behave differently, some conform to very strict codes of conduct and say as much. They do that spontaneously, for inscrutable reasons.

Seekers are free to pick the teachers that they resonate with, of course.

Edited March 12, 2019 by winterknight

[winterknight]

2 minutes ago, SoonHei said:

@winterknight

So with that said, my question is, enlightenment can also mean a person who was a psyopath killer prior to Awakening and he then has an awakening and it's permanent... then can his behavior can remain as it was if not infinitely worsen yet he would still be the buddah?

It's theoretically possible. There is, after all, nothing but God, and serial killers, therefore, are nothing but God. In Hindu mythology you have the example, for example, of the demon Ravana, who is actually a great devotee of God and very spiritual... he has simply been cursed to live a time on Earth as an evil king.

So the "evil ones" can be spiritual but doomed to play their parts in the cosmic drama.

[SoonHei]

@winterknight hmmm yes. thanks

and i agree

as awareness simply is and is watching the play - either knowingly or not. a serial killer can be consciously or unconsciously be doing his deed.

 

it's all a wonderful construct the more you understand. truly absolutely infinite and perfect. the only way it can be...

[Jkris]

@Skanzi I am not enlightened but what i heard/understanding is. 

Enlightenment is an experience. It is the vanishing of sense of me or i feeling.It will happen conciously. I. e the Identity will be gone. Some prefers to call it ego death. 

Its a clear realisation that you are not the body or mind but the Infinite Awareness. 

The change of attitude is due to enlightenment. 

Not sure why winterknight prefers to call it not an experience cannot be expressed etc. 

No need to read any scriptures books about enlightenment they are sheer waste of time - time pass and will keep you imagining what enlightenment is etc etc

Prior to enlightenment there is no need to understand what enlightenment is to attain enlightenment. Just have leap of blind faith that enlightenment is real. 

So what needs to be done to attain enlightenment.?

Stop thinking and be still.

Be a witness to your thoughts. 

Focus on i feeling continously. 

All the above said thoughts has to stop. And stay like that be still. This is what one can do or effort will go to this level. The sense of me or I feeling vanishing is not ones hand. It will happen for sure. 

Attend a self enquiry retreat. 

 

 

 

@Dumb Enlightened

 

[sidaz10]

What do you think about LEO "Self-inquiry video " it's a good guide to follow?

 

 

Edited March 12, 2019 by sidaz10

[winterknight]

29 minutes ago, Jkris said:

@Skanzi I am not enlightened but what i heard/understanding is. 

Enlightenment is an experience. It is the vanishing of sense of me or i feeling.It will happen conciously. I. e the Identity will be gone. Some prefers to call it ego death. 

Its a clear realisation that you are not the body or mind but the Infinite Awareness. 

The change of attitude is due to enlightenment. 

Not sure why winterknight prefers to call it not an experience cannot be expressed etc. 

No need to read any scriptures books about enlightenment they are sheer waste of time - time pass and will keep you imagining what enlightenment is etc etc

Prior to enlightenment there is no need to understand what enlightenment is to attain enlightenment. Just have leap of blind faith that enlightenment is real. 

So what needs to be done to attain enlightenment.?

Stop thinking and be still.

Be a witness to your thoughts. 

Focus on i feeling continously. 

All the above said thoughts has to stop. And stay like that be still. This is what one can do or effort will go to this level. The sense of me or I feeling vanishing is not ones hand. It will happen for sure. 

Attend a self enquiry retreat.

Enlightenment is not an experience because experiences come and go. Enlightenment is Knowledge -- it does not come and go.

Scriptures are far from pointless because the real barriers to realization are in old habits of mind and belief patterns that need to be reprogrammed. Without that reprogramming, the vast majority of people will not be able to remain still/be a witness/etc. for any appreciable period of time, and if they are able to do it, it will not be understood and have a deep effect.

Best to be grounded yourself in full realization before advising others.

Edited March 12, 2019 by winterknight

[winterknight]

13 minutes ago, sidaz10 said:

What do you think about LEO "Self-inquiry video " it's a good guide to follow?

I don't know. My advice on self-inquiry is here and here and in my book.

[EmptinessDncing]

@winterknight  Yes, you are absolutely correct.  Through experience of surrender and it fucking up my life the surrender couldn't continue.  I have no desire to be in that space.  It doesn't work for my family.  How the hell can you get around that?  

If you can honestly tell me that there can be surrender with functionality that doesn't require a nanny and personal assistant, I'd happily go there.  Can you?  I'm a 40 yo single woman BTW.  Two young kids.  Falling apart needs space, IMO, that I don't have.  It feels like I've gone as far as I can within the framework of my current life situation.  I have changed that situation as much as I can.  Any more would involve ditching the kids and moving interstate.  Um, no.

Please understand that I do know what living in that space feels like.  Really. It is everything that you describe.  Just beautiful still space where the sense of 'I' was.  Where a different type of thinking happens.  Life just happens.  This has been part of my reality on and off for a while (not on drugs).  It just pisses off my family.  There is nothing wrong with living more in 3D.  It just is.  When I say 3D, my reality isn't anything like what it was.  There is still a strong experience of the world being illusiory/non-dual, there is very minimal suffering, and 90% of the time there is bountiful joy and bliss.  Sometimes there is desire to go deeper, so I do.  This model is realistic in a western world.  As far as I'm aware yours is not necessarily, but feel free to educate me.

BTW, a few very good teachers of mine have agreed on escapism. Life is subjective.  I can agree and disagree with everything you say, it's more a matter of is it helpful.

[SriBhagwanYogi]

As i do spiritual work it seems that i lost interesting in material things, gossip, media etc. Is that bad, weird or wrong to kind off disconnect from the "normal" world? 

[winterknight]

2 hours ago, EmptinessDncing said:

@winterknight  Yes, you are absolutely correct.  Through experience of surrender and it fucking up my life the surrender couldn't continue.  I have no desire to be in that space.  It doesn't work for my family.  How the hell can you get around that?  

If you can honestly tell me that there can be surrender with functionality that doesn't require a nanny and personal assistant, I'd happily go there.  Can you?  I'm a 40 yo single woman BTW.  Two young kids.  Falling apart needs space, IMO, that I don't have.  It feels like I've gone as far as I can within the framework of my current life situation.  I have changed that situation as much as I can.  Any more would involve ditching the kids and moving interstate.  Um, no.

Please understand that I do know what living in that space feels like.  Really. It is everything that you describe.  Just beautiful still space where the sense of 'I' was.  Where a different type of thinking happens.  Life just happens.  This has been part of my reality on and off for a while (not on drugs).  It just pisses off my family.  There is nothing wrong with living more in 3D.  It just is.  When I say 3D, my reality isn't anything like what it was.  There is still a strong experience of the world being illusiory/non-dual, there is very minimal suffering, and 90% of the time there is bountiful joy and bliss.  Sometimes there is desire to go deeper, so I do.  This model is realistic in a western world.  As far as I'm aware yours is not necessarily, but feel free to educate me.

BTW, a few very good teachers of mine have agreed on escapism. Life is subjective.  I can agree and disagree with everything you say, it's more a matter of is it helpful.

I hear your worries about how to live in the world in surrender and that you've experienced a lot of it already, but still, that way of phrasing the problem has a gap in it.

 

Imagine you're watching a movie. You get into it and forget you're watching a movie -- you're identified with the heroine -- let's call her X. Let's suppose she has kids and a career. It's a hectic life.

Then, suddenly, someone nudges you and you remember you're just watching a movie. 

Then you say: "If I stay here in the knowledge that I'm sitting in the movie theater, who's going to take X's kids to school?"

Do you see how there's a confusion here? Do X's kids really exist? Does X really exist? Are you really X? Whether you relax in your seat or not, does that affect what X does on screen?

 

Or in other words, there are two types of surrender:

-Surrender as an action, as a CHOICE -- say, between what you call "3D" and "5D" living... this is surrender in terms of how the mind directs its attention... it's a space, you can go into it and out of it, etc. This is egoic surrender. 

-Surrender as a realization, which is when you recognize that there is no such thing as choice, no such thing as effort, no possibility of making any decision, and no need to do so.

 

It is surrender as a choice that leads to the problems you're talking about... surrender as a realization does not. (Though surrender as a choice can be used as a kind of spiritual practice which can lead to surrender as a realization)

Surrender as a realization doesn't offer a choice between 3D and 5D living. It is simply seeing a fact.

Actually, surrender as a realization already is the case, of course. It's just a matter of recognizing it. Though admittedly that seems to require practice. Now that practice can be done in a non-disruptive way -- e.g. through continuous self-inquiry while you're doing your work. 

 

In the Indian spiritual literature, there are many examples of people who live in the world doing complex things and still doing them completely effortlessly: most famously, a king named Janaka, a king of the underworld named Prahlada, and of course the kings Rama and Krishna, both incarnations of God. 

 

Gandhi in one of his letters at the height of his political campaigns writes this:
 

Quote

How mysterious are the ways of God! This journey to Rajkot is a wonder even to me. Why am I going, whither am I going? What for? I have thought nothing about these things. And if God guides me, what should I think, why should I think? Even thought may be an obstacle in the way of His guidance. The fact is, it takes no effort to stop thinking. The thoughts do not come. Indeed there is no vacuum - but I mean to say that there is no thought about the mission.

If Gandhi with his incredibly complex life can live an utterly surrendered, thought-free and effort-free existence... must it not be possible for the rest of us?

Edited March 13, 2019 by winterknight

[winterknight]

12 minutes ago, SriBhagwanYogi said:

As i do spiritual work it seems that i lost interesting in material things, gossip, media etc. Is that bad, weird or wrong to kind off disconnect from the "normal" world? 

How do you feel about it?

[SriBhagwanYogi]

i feel calm, relaxed but you know whats normal to other people or what they think about, talk i dont care about mainstream world and drama. 

It mybe looks weird or too much disconnection is bad for this material world.? 

[winterknight]

16 minutes ago, SriBhagwanYogi said:

i feel calm, relaxed but you know whats normal to other people or what they think about, talk i dont care about mainstream world and drama. 

It mybe looks weird or too much disconnection is bad for this material world.? 

You have to apply self-inquiry to this same question. Who is it that is worried about looking weird to people?

[EmptinessDncing]

2 hours ago, winterknight said:

Then you say: "If I stay here in the knowledge that I'm sitting in the movie theater, who's going to take X's kids to school?"

NO, I'M NOT SAYING THAT.  CLEARLY MY BODY STILL TAKES THE KIDS TO SCHOOL, I JUST FORGET SHIT AND PISS PEOPLE OFF BECAUSE I FORGET.  MY TEACHERS SAY THAT'S NORMAL, PUT SYSTEMS IN PLACE, MEMORY IS FLAWED ANYWAY.  BUT I DON'T REMEMBER TO LOOK AT THE SYSTEMS.  THAT'S ALL.  IT'S A MEMORY ISSUE.  I'M FINE WITH THE REST.  IT'S JUST A MOVIE ANYWAY, SO WHY CARE HOW MUCH THINKING IS GOING ON?

Do you see how there's a confusion here? Do X's kids really exist? Does X really exist? Are you really X? Whether you relax in your seat or not, does that affect what X does on screen. AGAIN, IT ISN'T HELPFUL TO SAY KIDS DON'T EXIST, BECAUSE IT DOESN'T ADDRESS WHY I SHOULDN'T GET AN ILLUSIORY GUN AND SHOOT THEM. I'M NOT BECAUSE I CARE FOR THEM.  NOT ATTACHED TO THEM, BUT CARE.  WHY CARE ABOUT ANYTHING, INCLUDING WRITING THIS?  IT'S ALL AN ILLUSION.  AND?  SEEING IT IS ONE THING.  LIVING IT COMPASSIONATELY IS ANOTHER.

Surrender as a realization doesn't offer a choice between 3D and 5D living. It is simply seeing a fact.

WELL WE HAVE NOTHING TO TALK ABOUT THEN, I'VE SEEN IT.

 

If Gandhi with his incredibly complex life can live an utterly surrendered, thought-free and effort-free existence... must it not be possible for the rest of us? I DIDN'T PERSONALLY KNOW HIM, SO I CAN'T SAY.  MAYBE HE HAD A MAID AND A NANNY!  WHY DID HE CARE?  WHAT'S THE DIFFERENCE BETWEEN HIS COMPASSION FOR PEACE AND EQUALITY AND MY PASSION FOR ENDING SUFFERING?