I am enlightened. Sincere seekers: ask me anything

[winterknight]

4 hours ago, graded24 said:

Your answers often suggest that any negative emotion always arises TO some false sense of I. Can it be that there is irritation but no one who is irritated? After all I do experience it with perception. There is seeing but no one who is seeing. 

If no one is irritated, then what's the problem?

Edited January 8, 2019 by winterknight

[graded24]

1 hour ago, winterknight said:

If no one is irritated, then what's the problem?

Hmm.. I dont know. Can there be a problem without someone who has the problem? 

Sorry I am not playing word games with you. Just trying to understand the experience 

[winterknight]

1 hour ago, graded24 said:

Hmm.. I dont know. Can there be a problem without someone who has the problem? 

Sorry I am not playing word games with you. Just trying to understand the experience 

This is your mind playing distraction games with you.

Is the problem aware of itself? No. Who is aware of the problem? That's who we're talking about.

So long as there is a problem, there is someone it is a problem for. You need to investigate that. And if and when it's truly seen that there is no one there, there will be no one there to say that there's a problem.

Edited January 8, 2019 by winterknight

[StephenK]

@winterknight Do you still feel emotions such as guilt, shame, anger? 

[Aakash]

I once has an enlightenment that i dropped the body completely and ended up in a "now" lets call it where, i wasn't able to label anything, no thoughts  came to mind about the object i was looking at, infact it wasn't even an object. I had no knowledge of it outside my direct experience. for example, i lost the concepts of what a chair was, what a bed was. infact there was no such thing as a chair or a bed in those momnets. I had literally no thought, i was in motion just being aware and looking at the very thing i'm looking at. Not trying to understand it, not trying to figure out how i can use it, just being so to speak. 

I couldn't define my laptop, the sun, the skies, the lamp shade. There was absolutely nothing, no me, no mind, no thought. I WAS just in a primitative being state almost as if i was the first human in the world again. With no labels on anything. No time, no nothing absolutely nothing

 

after i lost the focus on it and started to think what is this and i ended up back in duality and went back to normal. this was my first time direct experience with absolute nothign but after i came out i began to contemplate what nothing is and since i've only built mental concepts of what it is. But i've been curious this whole time that maybe what i had direct experience was ... , it was more like a void, like i was the only thing in the world. These are the best words to use because i'm not sure really how i would describe it in words besides everything dissappearing until there was nothing left besides myself and even then the words corrupt what it is. 

What do you think of this direct experience, this was like 3 and a half weeks ago. 

[SoonHei]

@winterknight

dream analogy.

i have, for my understanding, previously used this analogy... of how a dream feels so silly and a joke when you wake up from it.

 

i had a stream of thoughts during one of my sits in that, in a dream - though there is an illusion of a do-er... it was all just happening to Me (the sleeping me let's say for the sake of keeping it simple)

 

now add the concept of lucid dream to that, you get a sense of rush and happiness that this is not real, it's a dream, if you were in a sad situation it changes and recontextualizes instantly so on... 

 

my question: is it fair to say enlightenment = becoming lucid in this current waking state. nothing changes, just like a lucid dream, but it all becomes a joke/play. and now taking this beyond... unlike a lucid dream, where it is all happening to me ( a body/mind sleeping on a bed) ... for a lucid reality scenario, it is realized that there is no me as a thing sleeping/sitting anywhere. it's just an on-going dream, just appearing in me or *add all the other ways to describe enlightenment*  

[winterknight]

14 hours ago, StephenK said:

@winterknight Do you still feel emotions such as guilt, shame, anger? 

Like all questions about the experience of the enlightened one, it cannot be answered. Yes and no, in other words, or rather neither yes nor no.

4 hours ago, Aakash said:

I once has an enlightenment that i dropped the body completely and ended up in a "now" lets call it where, i wasn't able to label anything, no thoughts  came to mind about the object i was looking at, infact it wasn't even an object. I had no knowledge of it outside my direct experience. for example, i lost the concepts of what a chair was, what a bed was. infact there was no such thing as a chair or a bed in those momnets. I had literally no thought, i was in motion just being aware and looking at the very thing i'm looking at. Not trying to understand it, not trying to figure out how i can use it, just being so to speak. 

I couldn't define my laptop, the sun, the skies, the lamp shade. There was absolutely nothing, no me, no mind, no thought. I WAS just in a primitative being state almost as if i was the first human in the world again. With no labels on anything. No time, no nothing absolutely nothing

 

after i lost the focus on it and started to think what is this and i ended up back in duality and went back to normal. this was my first time direct experience with absolute nothign but after i came out i began to contemplate what nothing is and since i've only built mental concepts of what it is. But i've been curious this whole time that maybe what i had direct experience was ... , it was more like a void, like i was the only thing in the world. These are the best words to use because i'm not sure really how i would describe it in words besides everything dissappearing until there was nothing left besides myself and even then the words corrupt what it is. 

What do you think of this direct experience, this was like 3 and a half weeks ago. 

Well, it's some sort of a glimpse. But the real thing is not that which can come and go. Any experience which comes -- like yours did -- and then leaves -- is not the final thing. 

Indeed, enlightenment is not an experience at all, of voidness or nothingness or otherwise.

3 hours ago, omTom said:

@winterknight

Do you abstain from meat, alcohol, drugs, or sex? Why or why not?

Do you have to avoid these things in order to become enlightened or to retain your enlightenment? 

I was always a vegetarian. For the other three, no. Felt no need.

No need to avoid these things, but for certain people it can be helpful. The question is whether it increases mental peace to abstain or not. That must be determined on a case-by-case basis.

2 hours ago, SoonHei said:

@winterknight

my question: is it fair to say enlightenment = becoming lucid in this current waking state. nothing changes, just like a lucid dream, but it all becomes a joke/play. and now taking this beyond... unlike a lucid dream, where it is all happening to me ( a body/mind sleeping on a bed) ... for a lucid reality scenario, it is realized that there is no me as a thing sleeping/sitting anywhere. it's just an on-going dream, just appearing in me or *add all the other ways to describe enlightenment*  

It's fair to say that enlightenment is the realization that there is no waking state and no one to become lucid in it.

[Aakash]

@winterknight thank you, those were helpful words

[graded24]

16 hours ago, winterknight said:

This is your mind playing distraction games with you.

Is the problem aware of itself? No. Who is aware of the problem? That's who we're talking about.

So long as there is a problem, there is someone it is a problem for. You need to investigate that. And if and when it's truly seen that there is no one there, there will be no one there to say that there's a problem.

Got it. Thanks. 

Self-inquiry seems to be such a direct, no BS, path toward enlightenment. Why isn't it more popular? Why shave the head, wear a robe? Why worship a guru with exotic retreats to India?  Why all this embellishment around nonduality? It only keeps the people distracted. Why do you think it is not that well known? 

[winterknight]

33 minutes ago, graded24 said:

Got it. Thanks. 

Self-inquiry seems to be such a direct, no BS, path toward enlightenment. Why isn't it more popular? Why shave the head, wear a robe? Why worship a guru with exotic retreats to India?  Why all this embellishment around nonduality? It only keeps the people distracted. Why do you think it is not that well known? 

Because while it's simple, it really requires a great deal of prior work to have been done to appeal to someone. It is extremely simple and for that reason hard to explain, and will appear absurd or inane to someone unprepared for it. To them, it will simply sound like paradoxical gibberish.

Edited January 9, 2019 by winterknight

[graded24]

15 minutes ago, winterknight said:

Because while it's simple, it really requires a great deal of prior work to have been done to appeal to someone. It is extremely simple and for that reason hard to explain, and will appear absurd or inane to someone unprepared for it. To them, it will simply sound like paradoxical gibberish.

I see. I can relate. I didn't 'see' it though probably it was right in front in the first two years of exploring nonduality.. I just wasn't ready for it. 

I can see that I am identified with the seeker/nondual-student-me. It is more subtle than feeling being behind the eyes. I dont know exactly how to 'locate' it and disidentify from it.. 

Edited January 9, 2019 by graded24

[SoonHei]

3 hours ago, winterknight said:

It's fair to say that enlightenment is the realization that there is no waking state and no one to become lucid in it

Wow

Thank you!

That's a very simple way for me via that dream analogy.

 

#SelfInqTime

[winterknight]

On 1/8/2019 at 5:59 PM, graded24 said:

I see. I can relate. I didn't 'see' it though probably it was right in front in the first two years of exploring nonduality.. I just wasn't ready for it. 

I can see that I am identified with the seeker/nondual-student-me. It is more subtle than feeling being behind the eyes. I dont know exactly how to 'locate' it and disidentify from it.. 

There's no need to locate and disidentify from it specifically.

Just focus on the "I." "I dont know exactly how..." -- you wrote. Focus on that I -- you know you are.

Stop worrying about 'disidentifying' from all that you are not and get to the root of how you know you are. Feel out where the "I" feeling is coming from, or how you know you are.

[SoonHei]

On 1/8/2019 at 6:46 PM, winterknight said:

It's fair to say that enlightenment is the realization that there is no waking state and no one to become lucid in it.

just an add-on for this point @winterknight

this realization is seen/known by ME - ME being the TRUE (and only) SELF.

yes?

[SriBhagwanYogi]

Why is self inquiry by Ramana Maharshi often misunderstood people go on asking Who am I like its a mantra and nothing ever happens .

I appreciate your way of inquiry, only thing that got me to that space

From where did you learn it ?

[Outer]

Culadasa writes in his book:

"Historically, the prevailing view in cultures throughout the world has been dualism, the idea that matter is one thing and the mind another. However, close examination renders this view untenable. As a result, two reductionist interpretations have always existed side by side with the dualistic view, each eliminating one side or the other of this dualism. Materialistic reductionism asserts there is only matter, and the mind is at best an emergent property of highly organized matter. And modern neuroscience is believed by many to support this view.

On the other hand, meditation and other spiritual practices often make it clear that our subjectively experienced reality is mind-created --- exactly the realization I had in my teens, although I arrived at it from a different route. This realization often draws people to some form of idealism, the other reductionist interpretation, which asserts there is only mind, and that matter is an illusion, a mere projection of the mind to account for experience. For them, science is irrelevant to any search for ultimate Truth. Obviously, I'm not one of those, either.

I am a non-dualist. Primarily as a result of meditation experiences, but supported by rational analysis as well, I hold strong to this fourth alternative view. There is only one kind of "stuff," and both mind and matter are mere appearances. When looked at from the outside, this "stuff" appears as matter, and as such has been the object of scientific investigation. But when examined from the inside, this exact same "stuff" appears as mind. Non-duality, as realized through direct experience in meditation, completely resolves this dilemma. Both the implications and explanatory power of non-dualism are vast, and would require at least another book to even scratch the surface. But thus, I say that I have spent my life investigating the mind from the outside through neuroscience, and the brain from the inside through meditation."

What do you think of this?

Edited January 10, 2019 by Outer

[Ethankahn]

@winterknight  I’m not debating you, but I (not my ego, the “real I”) have found this to be the “answer” to why there’s Thingness rather than Nothingness. Thingness and Nothingness are only distinct to each other. But, there’s “another” state where they are unified. I call it Contra-Thingness because It’s a state of “being” both Thingness and Nothingness. That’s logically impossible, but not for Contra-Thingness. Contra-Thingness lies beyond logic because logic only applies to Thingness. So Contra-Thingness can overcome logic itself and make Nothingness into Thingness. I hope you enjoyed.

[winterknight]

On 1/10/2019 at 6:20 AM, SoonHei said:

just an add-on for this point @winterknight

this realization is seen/known by ME - ME being the TRUE (and only) SELF.

yes?

Well, I've just said that the realization is that "enlightenment is the realization that there is no waking state and no one to become lucid in it"

Which means that realization is the realization that there is no realization -- because realization is an event, and what is, simply is. 

So who is there to see or know what cannot be said to happen?

Again -- at a certain point the intellect runs out. It cannot describe enlightenment.

It cannot. It tries and tries and tries, like you are trying, but it will fail.

On 1/10/2019 at 6:52 AM, SriBhagwanYogi said:

Why is self inquiry by Ramana Maharshi often misunderstood people go on asking Who am I like its a mantra and nothing ever happens .

I appreciate your way of inquiry, only thing that got me to that space

From where did you learn it ?

Through re-reading and re-reading Ramana Maharshi and long, hard personal experimentation 

On 1/10/2019 at 7:10 AM, Outer said:

Culadasa writes in his book:

"Historically, the prevailing view in cultures throughout the world has been dualism, the idea that matter is one thing and the mind another. However, close examination renders this view untenable. As a result, two reductionist interpretations have always existed side by side with the dualistic view, each eliminating one side or the other of this dualism. Materialistic reductionism asserts there is only matter, and the mind is at best an emergent property of highly organized matter. And modern neuroscience is believed by many to support this view.

On the other hand, meditation and other spiritual practices often make it clear that our subjectively experienced reality is mind-created --- exactly the realization I had in my teens, although I arrived at it from a different route. This realization often draws people to some form of idealism, the other reductionist interpretation, which asserts there is only mind, and that matter is an illusion, a mere projection of the mind to account for experience. For them, science is irrelevant to any search for ultimate Truth. Obviously, I'm not one of those, either.

I am a non-dualist. Primarily as a result of meditation experiences, but supported by rational analysis as well, I hold strong to this fourth alternative view. There is only one kind of "stuff," and both mind and matter are mere appearances. When looked at from the outside, this "stuff" appears as matter, and as such has been the object of scientific investigation. But when examined from the inside, this exact same "stuff" appears as mind. Non-duality, as realized through direct experience in meditation, completely resolves this dilemma. Both the implications and explanatory power of non-dualism are vast, and would require at least another book to even scratch the surface. But thus, I say that I have spent my life investigating the mind from the outside through neuroscience, and the brain from the inside through meditation."

What do you think of this?

Yes, sounds basically fine. Not sure that I agree that non-duality has a lot of explanatory power, however. It's not a concept, ultimately, so it cannot be imported into explanations.

On 1/10/2019 at 9:28 AM, Ethankahn said:

@winterknight  I’m not debating you, but I (not my ego, the “real I”) have found this to be the “answer” to why there’s Thingness rather than Nothingness. Thingness and Nothingness are only distinct to each other. But, there’s “another” state where they are unified. I call it Contra-Thingness because It’s a state of “being” both Thingness and Nothingness. That’s logically impossible, but not for Contra-Thingness. Contra-Thingness lies beyond logic because logic only applies to Thingness. So Contra-Thingness can overcome logic itself and make Nothingness into Thingness. I hope you enjoyed.

The only real answer is beyond words...

[Bauer1977]

Hey Winterknight.... so with every thought and feeling I have had for the last several weeks, day and night, I have gone through the process.... "who is having this thought/feeling?.... Ron is... But Ron doesn't exist, so there is no point in keeping it in awareness." And I wipe it away. As a result I have been in a constant state of being for the most part ever since. It has been peaceful... that's for sure. But I have also not been "doing" anything. So much so that this life has come to an absolute halt. I suspect it has been part of the process. Having said that, there is a recent change. I have recently come to the realization that if everything is in fact God, all of Consciousness (the body, mind etc) as well as the awareness that is the "I" (as none of it actually exists).... it seems to me that the very act of providing resistance to the expression of these thoughts and feelings, is in fact the very thing that is keeping the sense of an individuality, as the "I", alive. Who  is "I" to resist anything God is attempting to do through Ron? And what gives this "I" the ability to judge what is right or wrong? Why would "I" (an "I" that doesn't exist) try to prevent or control anything that qualifies as God's will within the illusion from happening? How can "I" even attempt to do that? "I" doesn't exist, "I" is God, it's not even a possibility. It is all God as God within God. So now when "I", an illusion with the illusion of will power ask, "who is having these thoughts or feelings?" The answer is God..... and God is the one asking, and God is also the one answering. Its all very clear now how it has all been God, perfectly scripting this process up to now, leading to this moment and this realization. Is this God Consciousness.... Thoughts?

Edited January 15, 2019 by Bauer1977

[winterknight]

5 hours ago, Bauer1977 said:

Hey Winterknight.... so with every thought and feeling I have had for the last several weeks, day and night, I have gone through the process.... "who is having this thought/feeling?.... Ron is... But Ron doesn't exist, so there is no point in keeping it in awareness." And I wipe it away. As a result I have been in a constant state of being for the most part ever since. It has been peaceful... that's for sure. But I have also not been "doing" anything. So much so that this life has come to an absolute halt. I suspect it has been part of the process. Having said that, there is a recent change. I have recently come to the realization that if everything is in fact God, all of Consciousness (the body, mind etc) as well as the awareness that is the "I" (as none of it actually exists).... it seems to me that the very act of providing resistance to the expression of these thoughts and feelings, is in fact the very thing that is keeping the sense of an individuality, as the "I", alive. Who  is "I" to resist anything God is attempting to do through Ron? And what gives this "I" the ability to judge what is right or wrong? Why would "I" (an "I" that doesn't exist) try to prevent or control anything that qualifies as God's will within the illusion from happening? How can "I" even attempt to do that? "I" doesn't exist, "I" is God, it's not even a possibility. It is all God as God within God. So now when "I", an illusion with the illusion of will power ask, "who is having these thoughts or feelings?" The answer is God..... and God is the one asking, and God is also the one answering. Its all very clear now how it has all been God, perfectly scripting this process up to now, leading to this moment and this realization. Is this God Consciousness.... Thoughts?

Well it certainly sounds like the right thought process in large part.

Though it seems to me like you're trying to "get yourself" to do stuff by deeming it all God's will.

Are you the one who chooses to either a) "resist" the expression of actions or b) "not resist"? 

Supposing everything is scripted by God, where is the role for the one who considers questions like the ones you've posed above?

Edited January 15, 2019 by winterknight