I am enlightened. Sincere seekers: ask me anything

[graded24]

28 minutes ago, winterknight said:

And watch how you feel as you do various things, so you can start to see where you are lying to yourself. "I want to lose weight." You say that, but how do you actually feel when you say that? Do you actually feel any enthusiasm, or only a negative judgment self-directed at yourself, that probably comes from your family, from society, or other loved ones? Time to start noticing these things, and being increasingly honest about what you actually feel, not what you "should" feel, "think you feel," "want to feel," etc. -- and aligning your actions accordingly.

Ideally you'd be able to say "You know what? I don't want to lose weight. So I am proudly going to not lose weight." All this talk about laziness is a load of dishonest bullshit -- "lazy" is a nonsense term. There is only honest and dishonest.

 

Now lets say i be honest with myself and i see that i honestly want to lose weight. What then? I would try and lose weight right?

Are you saying that if i am not losing weight it is because secretly i dont want to.. and i would discover that if i were being honest with myself? That might be true. But it still leaves the possibility of NOW wanting to change and lose weight, right? 

I guess, more fundamentally, i am asking where action fits into all this. I can discover my honest feelings. Should i act on them or just analyze and leave it at that?

[graded24]

14 minutes ago, Serotoninluv said:

I made similar assumptions until I lived within a great tradition/sages that do include psychedelics extensively as part of the path. Yes, it's only one tool that should be integrated with other tools - yet it was the most powerful tool IME. After 20yrs of traditional meditation, I finally became willing to try something more radical. I learned more during that first ego death experience than those 20yrs of meditation. Afterwards, I thought "So thaaaaat's what those buddhist monks were talking about all those years". . .

It seems like you are getting close with your methods. If you have momentum, go with it. . . 

I understand what you are saying. You were the Truth in that moment. But you can also see that however great that experience was, it is at best a memory now. Memory is a function of the mind. The Truth that is Here and Now has no relation to that. 

I have gone through mini versions of this dynamics with cannabis and thats why psychedelics do not look as attractive to me at the moment. 

[zambize]

20 minutes ago, Serotoninluv said:

I made similar assumptions until I lived within a great tradition/sages that do include psychedelics extensively as part of the path. Yes, it's only one tool that should be integrated with other tools - yet it was the most powerful tool IME. After 20yrs of traditional meditation, I finally became willing to try something more radical. I learned more during that first ego death experience than those 20yrs of meditation. Afterwards, I thought "So thaaaaat's what those buddhist monks were talking about all those years". . .

Im so glad that I live in a time where we are pretty open at least in my area about use of psychedelics and that I didn't have to go through 20 years of meditation to get a feel for what can be experienced in meditation

 

[winterknight]

10 minutes ago, graded24 said:

Now lets say i be honest with myself and i see that i honestly want to lose weight. What then? I would try and lose weight right?

Are you saying that if i am not losing weight it is because secretly i dont want to.. and i would discover that if i were being honest with myself? That might be true. But it still leaves the possibility of NOW wanting to change and lose weight, right? 

I guess, more fundamentally, i am asking where action fits into all this. I can discover my honest feelings. Should i act on them or just analyze and leave it at that?

Yes, on both counts. Look, if your desire were clear, you would be either acting -- or not acting -- but you wouldn't be worried or making a big deal about it. Think about how many things you do (or don't do) each day without thinking about them. Your desire in those cases is very clear.

The problem comes up when there is a conflict of desires. Then there's that start-stop, push-pull. So in that case, you have to put forth special efforts to feel all the different desires in you, to articulate and specify them to see what they are really getting at, to trace their historical context (when did you start feeling them), metaphorize/express them, experiment with them... etc. -- so that you can listen to them all, understand what they're really getting at (which may not be what they initially seem to be about) and hopefully bring them to a higher reconciliation in which all of them are respected.

That's where therapy & symbolic/artistic expression of your feelings comes in.

You really don't need to worry much about action. Once you're reconciled that conflict, action will seem natural and will just happen.

You can analyze it and then allow what happens to happen -- either action or not, without standing in the way of what happens naturally.

Edited December 10, 2018 by winterknight

[Nahm]

@Serotoninluv Me too btw. 20 years of practices was nothing with psychedelics. 

[graded24]

14 minutes ago, winterknight said:

Yes, on both counts. Look, if your desire were clear, you would be either acting -- or not acting -- but you wouldn't be worried or making a big deal about it. Think about how many things you do (or don't do) each day without thinking about them. Your desire in those cases is very clear.

The problem comes up when there is a conflict of desires. Then there's that start-stop, push-pull. So in that case, you have to put forth special efforts to feel all the different desires in you, to articulate and specify them to see what they are really getting at, to trace their historical context (when did you start feeling them), metaphorize/express them, experiment with them... etc. -- so that you can listen to them all, and hopefully bring them to a higher reconciliation in which all of them are respected.

That's where therapy & symbolic/artistic expression of your feelings comes in.

You really don't need to worry much about action. Once you're reconciled that conflict, action will seem natural and will just happen. There's no need to deliberately not act, of course.

You can analyze it and then allow what happens to happen -- either action or not, without standing in the way of what happens naturally.

Ok this one is much clearer, Thanks! Now I understand what you are saying. 

I am going to relate to what you said with something I have learned previously, something  I wasn't sure how it fits with self inquiry. Correct me if i am wrong.  In reading J. Krishnamurti,  I came across the idea of what he referred to as fragmentation.. how we suffer because we are fragmented.. and how to a clear mind there is no choosing.. because it is already clear whats to be done. Conflicts only arise when ones psyche is fragmented: one part wants to this, other wants to do that. In actions where all fragments agree, like removing ones hand from a hot stove, there is no question of choice and  'thinking what should be done'.  Similar ideas of unifying subminds through attention to the breath are expressed in the famous book The Mind Illuminated. 

So are you pointing to something similar.. that these conflicts are pointing to an existing fragmentation of my psyche and i should focus at unifying the fragments. Once that is done, actions will naturally follow. 

Edited December 10, 2018 by graded24

[Forestluv]

22 minutes ago, graded24 said:

I understand what you are saying. You were the Truth in that moment. But you can also see that however great that experience was, it is at best a memory now. Memory is a function of the mind. The Truth that is Here and Now has no relation to that. 

I have gone through mini versions of this dynamics with cannabis and thats why psychedelics do not look as attractive to me at the moment. 

One cannot understand without the direct experience. Cannabis isn't even in the same ballpark as Aya or 5-meo. It's not what you imagine it to be. It is beyond all these concepts of Truth, moments, Here and Now, relations, memory, mini versions, what is attractive, "you", "me" etc. That is all within a tiny contracted space. All that gets obliterated on a trip and one is shown a much more expanded consciousness. When one returns, the mind tries to contextualize it - yet the direct experience and some consciousness expansion remains. One does not unsee what they have seen.

Yet, it's just one tool. If it doesn't resonate with you, don't use that tool. There are plenty of other tools. A few days after my Aya retreat, I met a woman who just returned from six months in an Ashram in India. She had never done psychedelics because he teacher told her it wasn't the right path for her. We hung out together for a week - talking hours and hours. We both knew it through direct experience, yet our approaches were so different. It was fascinating. One wasn't better or worse - just different.

[graded24]

4 minutes ago, Serotoninluv said:

One cannot understand without the direct experience. Cannabis isn't even in the same ballpark as Aya or 5-meo. It's not what you imagine it to be. It is beyond all these concepts of Truth, moments, Here and Now, relations, memory, mini versions, what is attractive, "you", "me" etc. That is all within a tiny contracted space. All that gets obliterated on a trip and one is shown a much more expanded consciousness. When one returns, the mind tries to contextualize it - yet the direct experience and some consciousness expansion remains. One does not unsee what they have seen.

Yet, it's just one tool. If it doesn't resonate with you, don't use that tool. There are plenty of other tools. 

How can the direct experience remain? Do you mean a memory of it remains? 
 

[winterknight]

3 minutes ago, graded24 said:

Ok this one is much clearer, Thanks! Now I understand what you are saying. 

I am going to relate to what you said with something I have learned previously, something  I wasn't sure how it fits with self inquiry. Correct me if i am wrong.  In reading J. Krishnamurti,  I came across the idea of what he referred to as fragmentation.. how we suffer because we are fragmented.. and how to a clear mind there is no choosing.. because it is already clear whats to be done. Conflicts only arise when ones psyche is fragmented: one part wants to this, other wants to do that. In actions where all fragments agree, like removing ones hand from a hot stove, there is no question of choice and  'thinking what should be done'.  Similar ideas of unifying subminds through attention to the breath are expressed in the famous book The Mind Illuminated. 

So are you pointing to something similar.. that these conflicts are pointing to an existing fragmentation of my psyche and i should focus at unifying the fragments. Once that is done, actions will naturally follow. 

Yes it is in a sense "unifying the subminds," except that I don't think you can just do it by paying attention to the breath.

I think you do it by becoming increasingly aware of your feelings/desire, articulating them, trying different actions and seeing how you feel and then adjusting your understanding of yourself, therapy (particularly helpful because we are often hiding things from ourselves, so it's often not as easy as simply saying "I want to unify myself"), etc.

Note of course the mind is in a sense always clear: it is clear sometimes that it wants to be conflicted about a particular decision. That is its decision!

[Forestluv]

26 minutes ago, graded24 said:

How can the direct experience remain? Do you mean a memory of it remains? 
 

There is a memory, yet the breakthrough experiences are not like "my experience". There is an embodiment of the direct experience. It goes way beyond a memory. Imagine reaching the consciousness level of a 70 y.o. zen master. Or, a squirrel attaining the consciousness level of a human. It's really hard to explain in reasonable terms. 

On the other hand, lots of people don't respond well to psychedelics and they can take a person into all sorts of nutty bizarre places irrelevant to nonduality proper. You've got momentum with the self-inquiry. Ride it. 

[graded24]

14 minutes ago, winterknight said:

Yes it is in a sense "unifying the subminds," except that I don't think you can just do it by paying attention to the breath.

I think you do it by becoming increasingly aware of your feelings/desire, articulating them, trying different actions and seeing how you feel and then adjusting your understanding of yourself, therapy (particularly helpful because we are often hiding things from ourselves, so it's often not as easy as simply saying "I want to unify myself"), etc.

Note of course the mind is in a sense always clear: it is clear sometimes that it wants to be conflicted about a particular decision. That is its decision!

Ok got it. Often in self inquiry, the very reality of the world is denied to such an extent that i wasnt sure where unifying the subminds--which sounds less metaphysical  and more like psychological work--would fit in that picture.  But I remember even you saying that this is where 90% of the work lies?

Dont get me wrong, i am all about doing the self-inquiry all day long. It's just that i also need a coherent approach to practicalities of life, which often involve such conflicts as 'i want to do but for some reason i am not doing..' .  Even Ramana always encouraged his listeners to continue with the household's life and not abandon their worldly duties.  And sometimes it is hard to differentiate whether parts of me are just using nonduality as an excuse to further their very egoic agendas.  

[winterknight]

2 minutes ago, graded24 said:

Ok got it. Often in self inquiry, the very reality of the world is denied to such an extent that i wasnt sure where unifying the subminds--which sounds less metaphysical  and more like psychological work--would fit in that picture.  But I remember even you saying that this is where 90% of the work lies?

Dont get me wrong, i am all about doing the self-inquiry all day long. It's just that i also need a coherent approach to practicalities of life, which often involve such conflicts as 'i want to do but for some reason i am not doing..' .  Even Ramana always encouraged his listeners to continue with the household's life and not abandon their worldly duties.

Yes, this psychological approach is the coherent approach to the practicalities of life... for as long as you need that. 

But while you do them you should try to practice self-inquiry, and eventually you will see that there is no need for a coherent approach to the practicalities of life. This is all due to the identification with the doer.

You're like the person sitting in a theater afraid that if you don't duck, the hero in the movie won't dodge the bullet... but until you experience that for yourself, keep doing in the world.

Quote

And sometimes it is hard to differentiate whether parts of me are just using nonduality as an excuse to further their very egoic agendas.

Actually this is the egoic thought! Who says what it is that you should or shouldn't do? Who is calling yourself lazy? Who is refusing to accept what you actually want? That's the ego!

[graded24]

23 minutes ago, winterknight said:

Yes it is in a sense "unifying the subminds," except that I don't think you can just do it by paying attention to the breath.

I think you do it by becoming increasingly aware of your feelings/desire, articulating them, trying different actions and seeing how you feel and then adjusting your understanding of yourself, therapy (particularly helpful because we are often hiding things from ourselves, so it's often not as easy as simply saying "I want to unify myself"), etc.

Note of course the mind is in a sense always clear: it is clear sometimes that it wants to be conflicted about a particular decision. That is its decision!

Have you read The Mind Illuminated? Just want to be fair to it. It is basically a modern book taking the buddhist mindfulness approach to enlightenment. It is rigorous and goes into very details of meditation.  But one of the underlying theme is that we have many subminds that talk to each other by broadcasting their contents into consciousness moment to moment. And awakening largely consists of unifying the mind over years of meditation. Of course it has been a topi of thousands of years of debate whether the buddhist awakening is the same as avdaitan awakening. But i digress.. 

[winterknight]

4 minutes ago, graded24 said:

Have you read The Mind Illuminated? Just want to be fair to it. It is basically a modern book taking the buddhist mindfulness approach to enlightenment. It is rigorous and goes into very details of meditation.  But one of the underlying theme is that we have many subminds that talk to each other by broadcasting their contents into consciousness moment to moment. And awakening largely consists of unifying the mind over years of meditation. Of course it has been a topi of thousands of years of debate whether the buddhist awakening is the same as avdaitan awakening. But i digress.. 

No, I haven't read it. But that makes sense, at least on the face of it... I don't think it's necessary or even most efficient to do that unification solely through meditation (though that may have been the way that monks did it in the old days... though they also had their "therapist" in the form of their guru, and also were living in a monastery with tons of disciplines to simplify life)...

Edited December 10, 2018 by winterknight

[graded24]

1 hour ago, winterknight said:

Yes, this psychological approach is the coherent approach to the practicalities of life... for as long as you need that. 

But while you do them you should try to practice self-inquiry, and eventually you will see that there is no need for a coherent approach to the practicalities of life. This is all due to the identification with the doer.

You're like the person sitting in a theater afraid that if you don't duck, the hero in the movie won't dodge the bullet... but until you experience that for yourself, keep doing in the world.

Actually this is the egoic thought! Who says what it is that you should or shouldn't do? Who is calling yourself lazy? Who is refusing to accept what you actually want? That's the ego!

Sorry if I am dragging this on but.. 

I am a little confused by your emphasis on this part (the psychological/therapy/unification) of the path. One one hand you make it sound as if this is largely unnecessary (since identification with the doer is ignorance to begin with) addition to the self inquiry but has to be done to indulge the normal life.. and then on the other, you say it is like 90% of the work?  If it is 90% of the work, then isnt this the main work in self-inquiry? 
 

[winterknight]

5 minutes ago, graded24 said:

Sorry if I am dragging this on but.. 

I am a little confused by your emphasis on this part (the psychological/therapy/unification) of the path. One one hand you make it sound as if this is largely unnecessary (since identification with the doer is ignorance to begin with) addition to the self inquiry but has to be done to indulge the normal life.. and then on the other, you say it is like 90% of the work?  If it is 90% of the work, then isnt this the main work in self-inquiry? 
 

No, the psychological work is not unnecessary.

Identification with the doer is ignorance, but you can't get rid of ignorance just by saying "It's ignorance!"

You have to do the work of transforming your perspective. To do that, you have to engage in this psychological work. Why? Well, because in order for the self-inquiry to proceed effectively, it has to be done in a quiet mind... that quiet mind can only be obtained when it is relatively "unified," as you put it.

It doesn't have to be perfectly quiet, only quiet enough... 

And then, when you apply self-inquiry to that quiet enough mind, doership will eventually be recognized to be non-existent. But until then, as the seeker, you have to treat psychological work as very necessary.

Edited December 11, 2018 by winterknight

[graded24]

2 hours ago, Serotoninluv said:

There is a memory, yet the breakthrough experiences are not like "my experience". There is an embodiment of the direct experience. It goes way beyond a memory. Imagine reaching the consciousness level of a 70 y.o. zen master. Or, a squirrel attaining the consciousness level of a human. It's really hard to explain in reasonable terms. 

On the other hand, lots of people don't respond well to psychedelics and they can take a person into all sorts of nutty bizarre places irrelevant to nonduality proper. You've got momentum with the self-inquiry. Ride it. 

What do you make of what sages say about 'spiritual experiences' ? That, they are great and very important but they are still experiences. They show that you are that which can manifest in ways completely different from the normal human experience .. so no time, no space, extremely expansive, something a mind cannot even imagine.. but  the manifestation is still form at the end of it. And it is a mistake to confuse it with realizing the Self in the way @winterknight or traditional paths talk about.  

SOrry I am not trying to downplay your experience and transformation. I say to people who have never tried any psychedelics exactly what you are saying. I am just exploring their relation to the true spirituality. I have always seen sages caution against confusing psychedelic experience with realizing ones true nature, since the true nature is what always is,. in the simplest of experiences. 

[graded24]

7 minutes ago, winterknight said:

No, the psychological work is not unnecessary.

Identification with the doer is ignorance, but you can't get rid of ignorance just by saying "It's ignorance!"

You have to do the work of transforming your perspective. To do that, you have to engage in this psychological work. Why? Well, because in order for the self-inquiry to proceed effectively, it has to be done in a quiet mind... that quiet mind can only be obtained when it is relatively "unified," as you put it.

It doesn't have to be perfectly quiet, only quiet enough... 

And then, when you apply self-inquiry to that quiet enough mind, doership will eventually be recognized to be non-existent. But until then, as the seeker, you have to treat psychological work as very necessary.

Great! So, to be precise, their contribution to self-inquiry is through quietening the mind.. that is, it is the quiet mind which is needed, and psychological unification is not necessary by itself. So a corollary would be, for example, if ones mind is quiet, regardless of whether or not their mind is unified, there is no need for the psychological work, right? 

Is this the general rule that I can orient my actions/decisions by?  That is, as a general rule, i should prefer decisions and actions that lead to a quieter mind. So, for example, with regards to actions, sometimes quieter mind  can come about by actually doing a task that a thought was bugging me about, and other times it can come about by analyzing the thought rather than fulfilling it. 

[winterknight]

4 minutes ago, graded24 said:

Great! So, to be precise, their contribution to self-inquiry is through quietening the mind.. that is, it is the quiet mind which is needed, and psychological unification is not necessary by itself. So a corollary would be, for example, if ones mind is quiet, regardless of whether or not their mind is unified, there is no need for the psychological work, right? 

Is this the general rule that I can orient my actions/decisions by?  That is, as a general rule, i should prefer decisions and actions that lead to a quieter mind. So, for example, with regards to actions, sometimes quieter mind  can come about by actually doing a task that a thought was bugging me about, and other times it can come about by analyzing the thought rather than fulfilling it. 

Yes, with a caveat. Sometimes a mind can seem quiet when it is actually dull -- lacking energy and focus. That apathy is also not-quietness.

And of course doing things according to your desire definitely quiets the mind... that's why I have such an emphasis on being honest about what you want. So that you can do it!

Edited December 11, 2018 by winterknight

[Preetom]

@Serotoninluv

Recently Leo talked about the distinction between States(a phychedelic/meditative high) and Stages(permanent transformation that actually sticks).

Would you say that your dmt breakthrough took you to the next stage? Or are you still trying to make sense of and integrate those states?